[00:00:00] You just got to tell them that's the Shopify way. Listen, if it doesn't work well with Shopify, you don't need it. Let's just sell stuff and like, don't get too crazy. Let's utilize the tools we have. Yeah. It's really like half the battle so much of the time. And I've definitely lost quite a few of those battles.

[00:01:10] David: All about the bundles lately. Everybody's talking bundles.

[00:01:13] David (2): It's all

[00:01:15] Kalen Jordan: about the bundles lately. Yeah. The bundulmans.

[00:01:20] Kalen: Yeah, they do it kind of crazy, like, like Foxcell has an app, like everybody can find a Foxcell, they have a popular app. And the way it does it is like, \ get a bundle of three for some discount or some fixed price or something like that.

[00:01:39] Kalen: And, like, that makes sense to me. It's like, you know, you pick three, mix and match, whatever, and you have a fixed price. But these guys, they have these massive bundles where, like, somebody, they're going on, like, a hunting trip, and they're gonna buy, like, a whole bunch of things at once. And they like to have it all in this one bundle.

[00:02:01] Kalen: Flow and the pricing, it's not like X fixed price for a bundle. It's like, there's the base unit for like a, a certain type of a device. And then there's add ons and some of the add ons are required. Some aren't required. Some of the prices are over overridden. Some of them aren't. , so it's just crazy.

[00:02:21] Kalen: I don't know. I was like, why there's this, only this one app that. covers a lot of the functionality they needed. And it wasn't the Foxcell one, unfortunately. But I was like, why aren't there more apps doing this? And I'm like, I think they're just doing it in a crazy way.

[00:02:40] David: I feel like that's the case.

[00:02:42] David: A lot of the time with bundles, when, like merchants are putting them together, like they have some idealized version of the way that it would be. And then. That ends up like, it's hard from a price perspective, but also how are you going to walk the customer through that?

[00:02:59] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:03:00] Kalen: dude. It's like you start talking about bundles.

[00:03:04] Kalen: And merchants, literally, they start getting greedy, like they just, there's a bundle, they just want a bundle of required, they want a bundle of features.

[00:03:13] David (2): Gotta get that AOV.

[00:03:16] Kalen: Yeah, they just start, like somebody grabbing as much stuff as they can carry to get out of a Target, like somebody told them, whatever you can carry, you can take out

[00:03:25] Kalen Jordan: of the store.

[00:03:26] Kalen Jordan: They just start bundling stuff, dude.

[00:03:28] David: Hey, that's how it is. You gotta just pack it into your arms, baby. I guess it makes sense for like a hunting trip though, like you got to pick your backpack and then you got to fill your backpack up with stuff.

[00:03:41] Kalen: Yeah, that kind of made sense to me, actually.

[00:03:45] Kalen: said it's really popular. This bundle that has like almost every product on the site in it. I was like, can we break that into, it's basically what it is, it's separate things that are bundles that are also bundles you can buy as a bundle that are all combined into a mega bundle.

[00:04:04] David: There you go. Big bundles. I'm

[00:04:07] Kalen: like, well, couldn't we do like, what you want to do there is you want to have a collection of the bundles and say, okay, just send them here and have them go and just pick which bundle they want for their hunting trip. But then she's like, well, no, because then what happened is that they would buy.

[00:04:27] Kalen: And then they'd come back and say, Oh, Hey, can I get this instead of that for this thing? And can I just pay the difference on it? No. So, so that's why.

[00:04:40] David: No. Yeah. That sounds like a start from a base product and then walk the customer through the different options they can choose. That's like a real time bundles situation.

[00:04:55] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:56] David: I feel like \ every company wants bundles, but it gets like the weird thing with bundles. I feel like you were saying, like, you get greedy, you want, the biggest AOV for this purchase, but you gotta make sure that it actually makes sense from the customer's perspective, or they're just gonna get confused and like, jetpack out of there.

[00:05:20] Kalen: Yeah,

[00:05:21] David: yeah, that's crazy.

[00:05:23] Kalen: Do you guys have bundles?

[00:05:26] David: Kind of, we have these systems products. It's like the system tote and it's got snaps in it. So you can pick different stuff that fits into the snaps, but we've been struggling to find a good way to like tell the customer about that without being salesy.

[00:05:44] Kalen Jordan: Like,

[00:05:44] David: \ here's your system totes. You can get just the system tote or, like we were thinking like maybe there's a different use cases. Like if you're a mom who's got like a bunch of baby stuff, you might want this stuff for your system tote. Or if you're planning on going to work out after work, you might want this stuff for your system tote.

[00:06:03] David: \ but it's definitely a, a hard problem. We did some A B testing on, on one of the solutions and it just did not do well. So I got to figure out, got to figure out why and try again this year, which is one of my scaries, but we'll figure it out.

[00:06:22] Kalen: One of the things to tackle was the UI pretty clear?

[00:06:27] Kalen: Like, was it a pretty. Cut and dry bundle type deal type.

[00:06:31] David: Yeah. I mean There was no discounting like that would come later because we already have this thing That's like a it's a bundle, but that you don't like get any promotion from it. You just get the benefit of the extra organization But when we tried like a different way to present This thing it just it wasn't better than what we had already and the way we did it was like, it's, so you go to the system toad PDP and then there's another section down underneath the add to bag button that says like customize your tote.

[00:07:02] David: And there we list all of the things that are compatible with that system toad. You can click it to see more details about it and then add each one individually to your cart. but it didn't move the needle. So we got to do some more research, I think. And. Like specifically for this product, why would someone choose a bundle and are we selling it in a way that would make them choose it?

[00:07:29] David: And also like, Make the experience not confusing because there's also the part where like, okay, when someone puts together a bundle, do you want it to show up as one item in the cart or do you want them to be able to like go through this experience? I want this thing as the base product and then I want the system flat bag and the wavy strap.

[00:07:52] David: And then you add all that to the cart. You've got three things in your cart.

[00:07:56] David: Do you want the customer to be able to switch stuff out like you were saying and remove that one thing and add something else instead? Or do you want it to be Like clean and it just shows the bundle as the one thing in the cart and

[00:08:09] Kalen Jordan: then

[00:08:09] David: like the downside of that is okay Well, if they want to edit something in their cart, then they're gonna have to delete that whole bundle So it's just like, it never ends.

[00:08:17] David: Bundles are like a recursive

[00:08:22] Kalen: problem. A recursive nightmare. Yes.

[00:08:31] David: I do feel like mega bundle is a perfect app name though. If you're going to, if you end up building an app for this, that's such a Shopify app name, mega bundle. Probably probably already exists,

[00:08:43] Kalen: but it's probably isn't like if it exists and it's true to form that it lets you create bundles of bundles in some clever way that I, I'm certain that doesn't create it and I'm going to become the next Gil and bundles of bundles.

[00:09:03] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:09:04] David: And it resolves the, this bundle's 10 percent off, this other one's 15 percent off, combine them together and the math, max. Yeah.

[00:09:12] Kalen: There's also some very distinct, not feeling good moments I've been having with this app and I don't want to, cause the team's been cool. They've been very proactive.

[00:09:24] Kalen: They've been working some things. They're the only app that has like. The types of stuff that the types of functionality we need and they also have a discount app that ties in with it so that you can set the price discounts per bundle and it, it has like, it's pretty feature rich, but as I'm getting into the app, there's no deep links , in the admin.

[00:09:50] Kalen: So you go to the app. You see your list of bundles. You click edit. Your URL doesn't change. You refresh the page and you're back at the home screen. Now you want to send, because bear in mind, I'm sending bundles back, forth, left, right and center with the client. They're talking about this one. Yeah, the TT 25.

[00:10:13] Kalen: Check that. Check out this and check out the build your own. And I go. Which, what are we talking? Cause they deal with these products all day and all night, \ and if I can't exact match search, the thing they're talking about, even though I've been staring at these products for months, I have no idea what they're talking about.

[00:10:30] Kalen: So we can't paste links back and forth to the bundle. You can only link to the front end, which, you know, you can't reference by name. Anyways, , if everything works, this will end up being a small annoyance. But I was like.

[00:10:43] David: That sounds hard.

[00:10:44] Kalen: But it's also like, when you see those red flags,, you kind of go,

[00:10:49] David: like, isn't there a solution to that?

[00:10:51] David: Like, are they, is it built in Polaris or is it like a custom thing?

[00:10:56] Kalen: It's Polaris. It's Polaris.

[00:10:57] David: Then isn't there a way to like stuff options up into the URL params to make it retrieve state? Yeah.

[00:11:04] Kalen: Yeah. I mean, every, every app. And then I asked, yeah, yeah. And then they were like, yeah, well, you can't really do that.

[00:11:12] Kalen: And I was like,

[00:11:12] Kalen Jordan: no, every screencast, you know, but, um,

[00:11:21] Kalen: They've got a lot of functionality in there, which we happen to need, and so, just kind of hoping it works out, but you want to have the feels good experience. I feel like you coined an important term in space, which is feels good in reference to an app.

[00:11:40] Kalen: That's what it's all about. It's not about the stars. Every app has some flavor of four ish stars. It's meaningless. Okay. Flow has 2. 3 stars, and it's the best app ever. Stars, the stars, which by the way, flow released some important features recently, which I saw that later in the program, once we're done with our bundle rent, but you want it to feel good all the way around.

[00:12:11] Kalen: It's got to feel good all the way around,

[00:12:14] David: and I never really like It's one of those things where you just like you can't really explain it Maybe sometimes you can but also like you just get in there and you're like, okay, this feels solid There's not like and you don't always know why we've been integrating with loop returns and they're like their backend software just feels good to use.

[00:12:39] David: And maybe it's because they picked the right colors. I don't know. They have a lot of like purplish blue and maybe that just makes me feel good. But you can also tell like the person who built this knows about this and they just kind of covered everything.

[00:12:56] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's thoughtfully architect.

[00:13:01] Kalen: Yeah, it's just, it's well, it's well put together. So we'll see we'll see I could be we shall see absolute disaster But we'll see

[00:13:09] David: the next problem you run into is if they have discounting on these bundles And then they also want to run a sitewide sale. Have fun with that Right That was one of my pains from like Gosh, like eight years ago when I was working on a, I was working on Heath ceramics, the dinnerware company in San Francisco.

[00:13:34] David: And they have, , these like dinnerware sets that are bundles. And it's like 10 percent off for the small one, 15 percent off for the big one. But then also we have this one week sale. How does that impact this 10 and 15 percent off? I don't know. Also it was magento. So it was like, Guess I gotta write all the code for everything here, and nothing just works.

[00:13:59] David: Okay.

[00:14:00] Kalen: You lost me at all.

[00:14:02] David: I'm glad I'm out of there. We're in Shopify land now. Everything is happy. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[00:14:08] Kalen: If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. That's how it is. Yeah. They also threw in a B2B. I had no idea they had a B2B. So they have B2B prices. It looks like we might be able to key off of the customer tag, which they just have one wholesale customer tag to worry about.

[00:14:27] Kalen: And then tie that into a discount or something. I don't know. But

[00:14:32] David: sometimes for some reason, promo apps don't work on tags and you have to use like a customer segment. But customer segments can be built off of tags. So that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, let me know if you hear this. I think I found something new to contribute to this podcast.

[00:14:51] David: Okay.

[00:15:01] David: A little sound machine here it's literally just this, like, I forget what this instrument is called, but it's like a little trumpet thing and you just push the thing down and it makes that sound. So let me know when you need one of those and I'll throw that in there. No, I can't let you know. You got to

[00:15:17] David (2): put that's my job.

[00:15:21] David (2): I have to know the exact moment.

[00:15:25] Kalen: Yeah. This one recording app that we used to use, I can't remember what it was called anymore before Riverside. It had a couple of buttons in it for like, , a

[00:15:35] Kalen Jordan: couple of things like that. But I feel like

[00:15:39] Kalen: if I had a physical thing, it would like it, I'd be more likely to use it, you know, like a physical button with a couple of options.

[00:15:47] David: Definitely. I keep looking at this thing on my desk and thinking of like, can I use this in my work calls and I, I never find an opportunity, but I feel like this is perfect.

[00:15:57] Kalen: Yeah. Nice. Oh man. Well, the flow thing was cool. They added, logging in for, I haven't looked at it yet. I just looked at a quick screenshot, but.

[00:16:10] David: Oh yeah. I went and checked it out.

[00:16:12] Kalen: Oh, nice.

[00:16:13] David: I saw that. It was, uh, it's pretty interesting. We, I looked at it for my, for some of my flows. it's kind of cool to see some of the debug information that that has kind of just like, you don't know what's happening. I still don't really know. It's just JSON, but it's like JSON that Shopify uses internally to schedule this 30, 30 day wait time is like in one of these flows that have 30 days and you can see like in the JSON it says like orchestration scheduled and then there's some IDs and like the number of seconds that it's going to wait.

[00:16:45] David: It's pretty interesting. And then you can see like the full, if you send an HTTP request, you can see the full body of the request that you sent. Right.

[00:16:56] Kalen Jordan: That's huge.

[00:16:57] David: I don't remember if you could see that before or not, but it's like, it's nicely displayed.

[00:17:02] Kalen: No, you could not. I actually had a whole pro tip.

[00:17:05] Kalen: I was very proud of of how you should build those in, build those GraphQL payloads and in a run code steps so that you can log it out. Um, specifically for this reason. So my, that pro tip is now useless. Thanks a lot, Paul. But it's the price of progress. But yeah, that's exactly, I mean, that's exactly what you want.

[00:17:28] Kalen: You want every step you want to see what's coming in and what's going out. So that's perfect.

[00:17:33] David: Yeah. I'd like to pick up some more flow work and see if it helps me out during the build phase. Cause like, like realistically when I make a flow, I kind of just assume everything is good after that, and it's just been running.

[00:17:49] David: I'll go back maybe once a month and be like, oh yeah, that flow is something that we added, and it's still fine.

[00:17:54] Kalen: Yeah, do you have error notifications set up?

[00:17:57] David: Mm hmm.

[00:17:58] Kalen: Okay.

[00:17:59] David: But we don't ever get any errors, so it's You're good to go then, dude. Just happy, happy Pat. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Kalen: Sweet. It's good times. Oh, , that's the other thing that was stressing me out.

[00:18:14] Kalen: I had no time to do any prep work whatsoever. But, um, But, uh, But actually, Actually, I was kinda glad, cause I kinda wanna just, like, not have to worry about that. And just, you know, if we need to find a topic, just pull it up real quick.

[00:18:36] David: that's the whole premise of this podcast is it's like kind of By the seat of our pants a little bit, you have a list, but it is, uh, I'm not sure it actually exists.

[00:18:49] David: You'll find

[00:18:50] Kalen: out. Well, that's the thing. Effectively, I don't have a list anymore. I mean, the list is kind of stale by now. And I used to sit down and I used to carve out 30 minutes every single time beforehand to sit down and go through my list of, things I bookmarked. You know, refresh my memory, put them in a list, prioritize them, it's doing all, it's doing all the footwork.

[00:19:13] David: I believe you. Um,

[00:19:15] Kalen: it's kind of a hassle. yeah, when you can, it's definitely better when you can just do that. I think, I think you get there eventually, you know, in my adventures with cursor, I was working on some stuff, yesterday and today, a little bit of, uh, JavaScript for registration flow and, and liquid.

[00:19:35] Kalen: And I had been starting to use Alpine because a couple people had recommended it. Oh,

[00:19:41] David: yeah. I wanted to ask you about that. ?

[00:19:43] Kalen: Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, like a couple people that were pretty solid front-end developers said they used it. It's kind of a nice, like lightweight state management, you know? It can fetch stuff and it can iterate, you know, loop over stuff and, uh, do conditional logic and stuff like that.

[00:20:01] Kalen: It has kind of a nice little syntax for if else, you know, just stuff like that.

[00:20:06] David: Is that a, like a replacement for. Polaris, or does it work with that?

[00:20:12] Kalen: No, this would be, like on the front end. , Polaris would be out for like in the admin for apps, but yeah, this would be just on like a storefront in storefront

[00:20:23] David (2): liquid.

[00:20:23] David (2): Oh, okay.

[00:20:24] Kalen: I had started using it, but, I'd still end up scratching my head on, at, different things. You know, it just takes a while to get comfortable with frameworks and stuff like that. And, and also, Cursor never seemed to do a great job with it. it's, so funny how sometimes the types of things that are confusing to me can also be confusing.

[00:20:47] Kalen: Cursor and sometimes that's not the case, you know, like sometimes you're looking at something, you're like, it just doesn't make sense. It's like magical in like a weird way.

[00:20:56] David: I get it.

[00:20:57] Kalen: And then stuff is

[00:20:58] David: hidden somewhere else. Something happens somewhere else and you don't know where that is and even his cursor.

[00:21:04] Kalen: And then sometimes cursor just nails it the first time and it's like, Oh, okay, cool. Figured it out. I was just dumb. And then other times it doesn't, and you just keep trying to prompt it to fix it. And it just doesn't. For this latest thing I was working on, I was like, well, you know, let me just use a plain JavaScript.

[00:21:19] Kalen: Because I'd heard, you know, some people are just like plain JavaScript people, like, yep. And I'd always thought that was a cool way to go, but I can't do that. Like I'm not smart enough to write, plain JavaScript. And also it's just like too much JavaScript and you got to memorize all the.

[00:21:36] Kalen: It's weird, shit that's in JavaScript for select.

[00:21:40] David: It's way better these days than it was in like, 2012, like everything was jQuery and like, well now I have to know which version of jQuery I'm using and which components of jQuery I need to like, I need this drop down interface, jQuery plug in JavaScript has, like, they just kind of took a lot of that stuff and put it in, but it's, it's named differently.

[00:22:07] David: And like you said, it takes a bit more code, but

[00:22:10] Kalen: yeah,

[00:22:11] David: That's how we are. Like, I don't want to have jQuery dependencies in my code, but I just want it to be JavaScript and it works.

[00:22:18] Kalen: So do you just write plain JavaScript then if you need to do some stuff?

[00:22:22] David: Yep, it's all just plain JavaScript.

[00:22:24] Kalen: Okay, cool.

[00:22:25] Kalen: Yeah, so I'm on the I'm on the team then I'm on the right squad.

[00:22:28] David: Well now you're on the Alpine team

[00:22:31] Kalen: No, but I got off the Alpine team Okay, now I'm now gone because I realized that Cursor was so much better at plain JavaScript, which makes sense because it probably has so much JavaScript to pull from and what it's crawled that it just knocks it out.

[00:22:51] Kalen: Like I built out this whole. For an automotive site, this whole shop by make model, sub model drop down thing with conditional drop downs and fetches and resets and local storage. And it's, it probably is a good three, 400 lines of code now, but it just banged it out pretty quick. And it's pretty good at like fixing, like making changes.

[00:23:16] Kalen: if I go in and read it, like I can, read the code, I can understand what's going on. I mean, it's a bit longer than I'd like, but I think it's working.

[00:23:25] David: Yeah. I mean, I've never been too concerned about the length as long as it's clear. Like, okay.

[00:23:33] David: Everyone with like brand new JavaScript syntax likes to make this function into one single line. But who is that good for the computer? Like the computer doesn't care. I just need to be able to go in and understand what's happening. So make the function five lines, whatever.

[00:23:50] Kalen: Yeah, well, it just always felt like, for example, stuff like if you have a dynamic dropdown that's getting populated from the fetch, like to go in and then loop over that and then go, select add, , query selector on the select element, and then you add a select, like how do you add a select option in JavaScript?

[00:24:13] Kalen: No idea. , it's some, crazy method or something like that. So I just always felt like that was just a crazy way to go, but it just, spits it out. And then when I see it, I can read it and understand it. I'm like, Oh yeah, easy. Makes perfect sense. Yeah.

[00:24:29] David: But yeah, JavaScript's got all the, like, if it, like you mentioned, it's a dynamic dropdown, so you probably have to send a request to populate it and then you have to like.

[00:24:39] David: A wait for it to be done or, like all that stuff is a bit differently structured than you would have in jQuery or whatever, but it, all makes sense.

[00:24:48] Kalen: Yeah. So it feels, good. It feels good to be getting back on the, well, getting on the JavaScript team.

[00:24:54] David: On the plan.

[00:24:56] David: JavaScript's. Interesting. I mean, I don't think anyone's a huge fan of just vanilla JavaScript, but it's everywhere. Yeah. like NetSuite scripts run off of JavaScript. If you know JavaScript, you can,

[00:25:08] Kalen: yeah.

[00:25:08] David: Be dangerous. Like in a lot of places it's aligo flows, use JavaScript, Mesa.

[00:25:14] David: Runs off of Javascript, it's just It's everywhere. Good skill to have.

[00:25:18] Kalen: It's all over the universe. It's happened.

[00:25:22] David: Man, I'm so glad I jQuery anymore.

[00:25:25] Kalen: Yeah, jQuery is

[00:25:26] David: like a lifetime ago. They have good docs though.

[00:25:29] David: That was like one of the reasons why they were around, I think, for so long is they just did a really good documentation. Jump around there. I'm a doc boy. Just give me the docs. Shoot me the docs. Oh yeah. I was working with one of our, uh, engineers today. Cause I have this, We have this app called a Trezzi, which is just, I think it's Italian for like a set of tools.

[00:26:01] David: I love it from Italy. So I don't know. I made up this name. But it's our app that does, uh, the fulfillment constraints.

[00:26:10] Kalen Jordan: We

[00:26:10] David: have a fulfillment constraint for making sure that, when you have a gift, the gift box always goes with the thing that It goes in the gift box because we fulfill from stores. So we have to make sure like, okay, if this item is fulfilling from New York, the gift box also needs to go to New York.

[00:26:28] David: So it's like a super simple app and it's the only app that we have that is internally built. was working with the engineer today because he was trying to add a new fulfillment constraint for monogramming. And, he started going through and like reading the code. And I was like, you can probably copy all of that stuff, but, definitely go look at the Shopify docs because there's like so much stuff in the docs that kind of makes you understand what is actually happening.

[00:26:56] David: And also like. 80 percent of the files in this app codebase were generated automatically by the CLI, so like read the docs and try not to understand everything that's happening in here all at once.

[00:27:12] Kalen: Yeah. Wait, you said it's an Italian app or it's an app you built?

[00:27:17] David: It's an app we built, but I had to come up with a name.

[00:27:20] David: Naming things is hard. Gotcha. I'm just trying to look up what a trezi actually means now. But yeah, I was trying to figure out like, okay, this is like a set of tools.

[00:27:30] David (2): Do I still sound sick?

[00:27:31] Kalen Jordan: Yes. You sound, you didn't sound sick last week. You sound. 100 percent more sick this week.

[00:27:39] David: Oh man, I was, I slept for 16 hours on Wednesday, like just passing in and out of consciousness, like sweaty. So I, like, took half the day off, and I've been recovering since, but yeah, I got, knocked out. Apparently it's going around in St. Louis right now, like, everybody's getting sick, and now I'm, like, afraid to go anywhere outside of my house, because I don't want to get sick again, or have anyone in my family get sick. Dude, it's so rough when

[00:28:09] Kalen: you get sick. Are you smashing vitamin D? You need to smash the vitamin D.

[00:28:14] Kalen: It has changed my entire life.

[00:28:17] David: I gotta get that, because I don't go outside, so I don't get any vitamin D naturally. I need, I need some. I'm

[00:28:24] Kalen: gonna send you, I'm gonna send you some, dude.

[00:28:26] David: Oh, I don't have your address. I'll put it right in my veins. I've just been eating carrots. I got these carrots on my desk.

[00:28:33] David: Nice. But yeah, I'm like a, I'm such a baby. I, my wife calls it the man flu. Cause like, Oh yeah. I just, when I get a cold, like it's just, Oh, you have a little cold, poor baby. But I get destroyed. Maybe my sinuses take up more of my skull than normal or something, but I'm just making excuses for being a, baby boy with these clothes.

[00:28:57] David: I thought you had large sinuses, I would think. Exactly. Dude, have you ever seen, like, you know how they have cameras that can go into your ears and stuff? I saw them do, like, put it up someone's nose. There is a

[00:29:11] David (2): cavern in there. It's way bigger than you think.

[00:29:14] Kalen: Oh, it's Like,

[00:29:15] David (2): nostrils are Uh, facade, there is so much room in this

[00:29:21] Kalen: absolute madness.

[00:29:23] Kalen: I listened to this three hour podcast on nasal breathing and how when you only breathe out of your nose, all the health benefits and all the things that are happening up there and that it widens all the. Flows back there. The tubing, I don't know your whole life, but like it's the nose, the nasal cavity is a big deal.

[00:29:48] David: It is. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. I always feel way better when I can like breathe through my nose, but I can't really right now. So

[00:29:57] Kalen: yeah. Not

[00:29:58] David: feeling great.

[00:30:00] Kalen: Well, we have two very strong contenders for. For a show title at this point.

[00:30:08] Kalen: Which is always good. You always want to have options.

[00:30:12] David (2): We got options.

[00:30:14] Kalen: We definitely got options.

[00:30:16] David: I'm excited that, the people were excited about my pan. It's, it's going great. I got that bad boy seasoned up.

[00:30:24] Kalen: Your pan has become a big deal

[00:30:26] David: it is a big deal.

[00:30:28] Kalen: I was trying to figure out like what clip to share.

[00:30:31] Kalen: And I was like, ah, I got to find, , something interesting about Shopify. But sometimes I just something I go, oh, that's funny. Let me just post that. Don't post funny stuff. Try to keep it, try to keep it on topic, try to keep it relevant. And then I was like, well, you know, bill texted us about it. So let's just, for whatever reason it was, you know, let me just post it.

[00:30:53] Kalen: And then. Bam. Everybody loved it. It was amazing. That

[00:30:56] David: engagement.

[00:30:58] Kalen: Yeah. I love a little, I love a little bit of engagement on a post. Nothing quite like it. But yeah, dude, I guess people care a lot about your damn frying pan, dude. Good for you. Good for you and your fancy frying pan.

[00:31:13] David: We keep it low to the ground in this podcast.

[00:31:16] David: You know, we're talking about JavaScript, we're talking about frying eggs, it's all part of life.

[00:31:23] Kalen: We keep it real. That's right. Um, Oh, so I tried, Syncify, the, uh. Oh yeah. CLI tool from, the notorious Panoply. One of the developers actually used to do talks that, . Um, he probably had, uh, recommended for some front end dev.

[00:31:42] Kalen: We're doing some, we're working on a site and, uh, he had it, he has it up and running. It's a few versions behind. The version we're using is a little older, but I was all excited to have a good hot, a hot reload while coding, because do you use the Shopify theme CLI hot reload?

[00:32:02] David: Yeah. I would love to hear about, like, the differences in what you're seeing.

[00:32:07] David: Well, it

[00:32:08] Kalen: never seems, I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but the native one never seems to work. Like, stuff just, like, I was trying to use it on this bundle app, and it just, which is on an app proxy URL, and I got some insane server side error. Oh. It breaks with authentication, which I was like, okay, fine, I can deal with that.

[00:32:30] Kalen: But even when I'm not authenticated, sometimes it does weird stuff. So

[00:32:35] David: I have any apps, but like, no, I haven't had any issues with the authentication for just doing like straight liquid. Unless there's like, unless you got syntax errors everywhere, Kaelin, you got cursor in there just like throwing question marks in places or something.

[00:32:52] David: Going nuts. Well,

[00:32:55] Kalen: so do you just use the 127. 001 URL in?

[00:33:00] David: In the

[00:33:01] Kalen: CLI tool. Okay. And

[00:33:02] David: then, yep, I just run the, run the CLI tool. It gives me the URLI command, click it, and then I'm off to the races. One thing I noticed all

[00:33:10] Kalen: the time,

[00:33:11] David: it does work. Yeah. But if you also have dev tools open, it gets real mad about that and like.

[00:33:18] David: My CPU starts melting because every time I refresh, like every time you make a change to the code, it refreshes the front end and then also has to re render all of the elements in the element pane on, on the dev tools. So it gets mad.

[00:33:34] Kalen: Right, gotcha.

[00:33:37] David: Well,

[00:33:38] Kalen: I don't know why it doesn't work for me, but I was getting Syncify set up and at first I was super pumped because like I've gotten really used to in these Next.

[00:33:48] Kalen: js apps I'm working on with Cursor, I've gotten really used to it and it's just like It not only are you writing code faster with cursor, then you just pop over and before you've even switched tabs, you just see all this magic on your screen. It's just, it's amazing. But then, so I was like, cool, I can finally start doing that again.

[00:34:09] Kalen: But anyway, it's not, the hot reload has is buggy and synchrified too. Hopefully that'll get fixed when we get back up to the latest version of it.

[00:34:18] David: Does it also do the, like, can you, like another thing that we use the Shopify CLI for is in our, continuous integration pipelines, it gets used to push out the theme, and like check theme IDs and stuff like that.

[00:34:34] David: Does it have all that stuff in the same kind of API?

[00:34:37] Kalen: Um, I don't know, actually, I think in the instructions, it said to upload as a file when like initially setting up the theme. So I'm not really sure how it does the deployment. , but yeah, I did get in there and play around with it a bit, but.

[00:34:56] David: I'll have to check it out. I mean, the Shopify CLI isn't. Yeah. It's super slow because like this thing that we're doing and the continuous integration is just to get a preview URL that's shareable and it posts in a comment on GitHub. Maybe there's a, maybe this shaves off some time or something, just some reason to look at it.

[00:35:15] Kalen: Yeah. Well, I think it's supposed to be faster, which is kind of nice if you're hot reloading a lot and switching back and forth and it's snappier. I think that'd be cool. Just giving me some hassles. I have this, this automotive client. We're using search pretty, pretty heavily.

[00:35:35] Kalen: I remember I, tweeted recently about like, why is, or we might've talked about it too. Like, why is the search app rated so highly? Because I feel like the only time I ever hear about the search app is when somebody has some issue or some edge case it doesn't handle or something like that.

[00:35:50] Kalen: But it was my first time just setting it up, going like and I was looking at a third party app that would have cost like 300 bucks a month or something like that for a hundred thousand products because this automotive merchant has a bunch of products and It was a pretty good app. I think it was boost AI or something

[00:36:10] David: Got to get that AI in the title.

[00:36:12] Kalen: Yeah, you guys slide it in there a nice app. It has, one of the things the client wanted is like a nested, category list, cool collection list, in the search results that filters by what they're searching on and removes. Collections that aren't, don't have any matches.

[00:36:31] David: Interesting. The search and discovery app can't do that, can it?

[00:36:36] Kalen: Correct. Search and discovery can't do that, which is why I was looking at this app. And then I told them, I was like, yeah, so you know, this, I was happy. Cause I thought I was like, I thought I might have to build it.

[00:36:48] Kalen: I didn't know how I would. And then I realized I probably couldn't, at least not tying it into search or discovery app. I mean, you have to build your own search app to get that. And that's what they've done. They have a bunch of other features too. And I was like, cool. You know, I tested it out. It had this tag filter, , thing that we need, to filter by specific vehicles.

[00:37:08] Kalen: And then she's like, wait, wait, wait, what? We don't want to be spending, we don't want to be paying for apps if we don't have to. And I was like, and then I took another look at the search app and I was like, well, you get a category filter. We have a meta field with a category in it. And you get a nice filtering of the categories.

[00:37:27] Kalen: They're just not nested, which. I mean, it's nice to have, but I don't think it's that valuable. I mean, the native search app gives you a lot. I mean, it's unlimited products. It's indexing the hell out of that thing.

[00:37:45] David: You can also do, um, Like, they have groupings that you can, , I know for sure. So for each of the filters that you have, you can create families for the filters.

[00:37:56] David: So like, if you've got color families, you can have color be one of your filters. And then if I've like in my situation, you've got like 35 different Browns. So you can put, you can like categorize the Browns into one Brown filter. So maybe that works there.

[00:38:14] Kalen: Maybe.

[00:38:15] David: Remember, also the way that it gets outputted liquid is just like, you just get, results.

[00:38:22] David: And so you could like, while you're going through and like outputting those results, you could do more stuff to like, okay, Here's my list of results. Maybe you could sort them or something by another field, like a collection, and then put them in somehow differently in the interface.

[00:38:42] Kalen: But doesn't the search, doesn't it, when it fetches, doesn't it return HTML? Like it doesn't seem to return JSON.

[00:38:52] David: It doesn't return JSON, but I'm fairly certain it returns results, and then you actually output those results in Liquid. I don't think it gives you HTML because like we have custom product tiles and so it's using our product tiles for each.

[00:39:07] David: And then for each one, like recently we did an edit where, , we have certain colors that are hidden. So like there are new color that are, that's coming out. So it's hidden on the front end. But, and it's like a navy color. So if someone was searching navy, they could see this new product that's coming out before it was supposed to be shown.

[00:39:25] David: And so, you can do stuff like, If this result is one that is supposed to be hidden, don't actually output it. So there's definitely a level of access there where you can do stuff.

[00:39:37] Kalen: Wait, and you do that in liquid? You say if this thing Yeah. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah. I was looking at it and I could have sworn those Ajax fetches were returning a gigantic HTML of the entire page.

[00:39:53] Kalen: I was so confused. I got it. I got it.

[00:39:55] David: I got it. That would suck.

[00:39:57] Kalen: I mean, unless it's rendering the full HTML, but it's doing it via liquid that you can go in and.

[00:40:08] David: Yeah, that's probably it. It's doing like a storefront AJAX request to back to the theme, but the theme is still what's giving you that HTML.

[00:40:18] David: So you should be able to get at it.

[00:40:20] Kalen: All right. Yeah, I'll take a look at that. That could be cool.

[00:40:23] David: Depends on the theme, I guess, but I'm sure no matter what the theme is, it works similarly.

[00:40:28] Kalen: Dude, I've, I've had a number of like simplification wins with clients this week now that I think about it.

[00:40:34] Kalen: Well, I'm saying that this is a win, even though the client hasn't agreed, but

[00:40:39] David (2): I just got to tell them that's the Shopify way. Listen, if it doesn't work well with Shopify, you don't need it. Let's just sell stuff and like, don't get too crazy. Let's utilize the tools we have.

[00:40:53] Kalen: Yeah, it's really like half the battle so much of the time.

[00:40:58] Kalen: It is. And I've definitely lost quite a few of those battles, but I feel like

[00:41:06] David (2): Your custom

[00:41:07] David: login permissions database thing? Yeah. That sounds awesome, but also hard. That was a loss. That

[00:41:15] Kalen: was a loss

[00:41:16] David: battle.

[00:41:17] Kalen: But yeah, I've had a couple where, it's kind of a skill, I think to really get good at pushing for, simplicity and.

[00:41:27] Kalen: Nativity. Because, you know, even though Shopify does limit your options, when you look at all the available third party apps, including SAS and all the other stuff out there, you kind of, in a way have the same dynamic where it's like, if you want to go do something crazy, you can find a way to do it.

[00:41:49] Kalen: Or you can totally get simple, you

[00:41:51] David: know, it wasn't that long ago where like I would be on a vendor call with some new product, like SAS product. And the question is like, Do you have an API so I can do whatever I want? And the answer was most of the time, no, or like it's a soap API. And I'm like, okay, nevermind.

[00:42:11] David: Nowadays, no matter what the SAS is, , like Shopify for one has a very well defined interface for these apps to have no excuses to do things weirdly. And to everyone just has an API because like, well, that's not hard anymore. Just put a rest API on, on your stuff.

[00:42:28] Kalen: Yeah. Like this one client wanted to do this registration flow using this third party SAS that would integrate with, uh, Shopify customer accounts using the, um, like the authentication integration deal they launched recently.

[00:42:44] Kalen: I forget what it's called, but it can integrate with author zero and other types of authentication providers and stuff. And I had looked at that for this other project a little bit and then we ended up not needing it. It basically, it's like, I think the basic use case is really for single sign on.

[00:42:59] Kalen: If you're not doing single sign on with some other system where you have accounts, I don't think it makes sense. But Anyway, the client was like, Oh yeah, we can use this. And then also this authentication SAS integrates with this other SAS that is, is a no code tool for building, registration flows and things like that, and I was like, no, we got it.

[00:43:22] Kalen: I was like. And we were losing, we were on, yeah, we're on this client call and he's like, can you look into that? And I'm like, ah, , and both me and the other developer, the friend developer, what we're pushing, trying to push back on it, but the client wasn't really having it. And then we finally managed , to change his mind in the end.

[00:43:42] David: Was it like Opta or something that was trying to get you to use all their tools?

[00:43:45] Kalen: It's called Stitch. S T Y. Stitch. TCH or something like that and then it integrates with this thing called feathery, So it's like,

[00:43:56] David: why is this a, like, why do we spend our time here? I mean, maybe there's a good reason, but yeah, customers don't care.

[00:44:03] David: Like they don't care about the way that they sign in. They just want to be able to look at their stuff they bought. And make that easy.

[00:44:11] Kalen: I mean, the main, limiting factor with new customer accounts is you got to go through the new customer accounts authentication, which does get a little confusing for some people, the password lists authentication.

[00:44:23] Kalen: And when they want to do like a registration flow, they just want to do a typical registration flow where. You go through all these steps and after you completed those steps, you're, you're authenticated.

[00:44:38] David: Do they need to have all that stuff up front? Cause like the, the new customer accounts, extensibility is pretty good and you could just have them log in and then like over time, put a widget in their account section that asks them the questions that you need to know and build up that information.

[00:44:56] Kalen: Well, the way I did it was I, I had the authentication step first, and then you can redirect them right back into your registration flow in liquid on the storefront. You send them there, they lock, they put their email, put the code in boom, and then they're back and then they verify their phone number and their birth and other things in that registration flow.

[00:45:20] David: That's really new by the way. It, we couldn't do that until like, a few weeks ago. The redirect after login. Yeah, yeah,

[00:45:26] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah, yeah. The redirect is huge. The redirect is

[00:45:31] Kalen: huge. I actually, just before that was launched, there was this workaround someone found for doing a redirect, like a client side redirect in the React.

[00:45:41] Kalen: Uh, job, jobby, uh, actually got that. I got that working, but it was super hacky because you know, the thing loaded, the page loaded, and then it redirected you client side, like a second later. Weird. So this one is super nice.

[00:45:58] David: We also got the, uh, customizable top nav

[00:46:02] David (2): in the account section. Heck yeah. All the customer account things these days.

[00:46:08] David (2): Yep. That took quite a while to get that top

[00:46:11] Kalen Jordan: nav situation in there. I don't know. I don't

[00:46:17] Kalen: know guys. I have to imagine that they're just trying to prevent like sprawl of top nav. Like. You remember how it was in Magento? Like, they'd be injecting all sorts of shit into your nav and then they're putting bright colors into their nav button and and it just like, it gets messy.

[00:46:40] David: I guess, but it's there now, so.

[00:46:42] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:46:44] David: Couldn't have been anything. I mean, it's the Shopify way to like get something ready for release that is shippable like the agile manifesto get something shippable and then iterate it over time and Sometimes the stuff that shippable is like missing quite a few things that you would expect but they get there

[00:47:04] Kalen: they must have just put some thought into how to keep it like clean or something because Otherwise, that's just the first thing you do.

[00:47:12] Kalen: You just give some ways to like put some links in, , give me some links, man, some fricking linkages. So how many, customer account extension apps do you have? Like how many top do you have in your customer?

[00:47:28] David: We just have one custom one that goes to our, , our loyalty program, so it's just, uh, like create a select up in the top.

[00:47:36] David: But nothing too crazy there. The only other thing that we have that shows up in the customer section is, , we use fairing data. So that's an app that like asks you how you found out about us and kind of goes through and gives us an idea of where you came from. But other than that, there's not much.

[00:47:55] David: In our customer account section, other than just like your order history, standard Shopify stuff.

[00:48:02] Kalen: Nice. Yeah. I'd imagine those are going to get a little cluttered. mean, they might.

[00:48:08] David: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting that now, now that there's enough flexibility there, you can do stuff like have people , like one of the things I always wanted to do was give customers a way to understand for the products that they bought.

[00:48:25] David: Like we have this like fewer better Kind of ethos around our brand

[00:48:29] Kalen Jordan: and

[00:48:31] David: along with that is this, this idea of price per wear. So like over time, let's say you bought something and it was 300 but you wear it like every day over the course of a year, the price per wear comes down like significantly to like 30 or something.

[00:48:49] David: And then, so you could see like, okay, I've bought a lot of stuff, but over time my price per wear is actually really low because The quality is high enough that, I get a lot of use out of it and it helps me feel better. But, so you could do stuff like that in the customer account section now.

[00:49:06] David: But I haven't really played with it much.

[00:49:08] Kalen: Wait. Yeah. You would put the price per wear metric in the customer account?

[00:49:14] David: Yeah, you like, cause you can have a custom blocks now and in the customer account section. So you could just like make an app, have it render something that has to do with like based on the products that you've purchased and how long ago you purchased them.

[00:49:29] David: And you could also give them like a registration, like, okay, put in, how many times you think you wore this bag or something like that. Okay.

[00:49:37] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:49:38] David: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe not that experience, cause that doesn't sound like something a customer would actually enjoy, but I think is cool. It's something like that.

[00:49:48] David: It could just be like a page on the front end that just knows about you since you're logged in also, I guess

[00:49:55] Kalen: Yeah, there's this cool app that lets you add Admin extension Buttons, I think it's called. I think that's the name of it is like admin buttons or something, but I think they also were doing like little forms inside of the customer accounts and So it's like a little form builder inside of the customer accounts.

[00:50:16] Kalen: Could be something like that.

[00:50:19] David: I mean, that's another one that's scary. Like once apps are able to add separate buttons and like widgets into the admin, how crazy does the admin get? , but I do, like, I do think that , that's a nice little Lego block. Cause otherwise I think the only thing you could do is like add new admin actions.

[00:50:35] David: So you'd have to go up and click that down arrow in the top right. Which no one ever does. Yeah.

[00:50:41] Kalen: Yeah. I, I don't really see a lot of, at least in the sites I'm in, I don't really see a lot of admin buttons. I wouldn't mind seeing some more. But I think you can also, I think you can also remove them. Like, I think a lot of times you have to add them, add them in, even if the app supports them.

[00:50:57] Kalen: I think if the manually enable them,

[00:51:00] David: that's probably good. So yeah. Like a theme block. Kind of similar situation.

[00:51:05] Kalen: Yeah. I think they're kind of

[00:51:06] David: similar to that. , I really like how all the apps have adopted this, like, yeah, and maybe this is just something that you have to do if you have an app like this, but they, like when you install an app and then they require some sort of theme app extension block, they tell you like, Hey, you haven't enabled this block yet.

[00:51:23] David: Here's how you can go do it.

[00:51:25] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:51:25] David: And it's a deep link into the theme. They all seem to have that these days and it's really helpful.

[00:51:30] Kalen: Yep. Yep. That's the way to do it. Deeplink them in there. I did one of those. There's a little API for generating that link. Nice. I haven't built one of those admin extensions yet though.

[00:51:43] Kalen: That'd be fun to do.

[00:51:45] David: I keep thinking about getting into the app, like, just make an app game, but I'm too lazy I guess. Yeah, that's tough, dude.

[00:52:00] David: Cause then you gotta do support and you gotta sell it and ain't nobody got time for that. I got a job already.

[00:52:10] Kalen: The guy, uh, Kiro that built, it was one of the first apps, I think we talked about platmart swatches. It's a color swatch app that I used. He I just, he just recently tweeted that he's done.

[00:52:23] Kalen: He's not consulting anymore and he's, doing his app business full

[00:52:27] David: time. Yeah. Congrats, dude.

[00:52:30] Kalen: I was like, that's like, I guess I thought he was already full time on apps at the time that I ran across him, but yeah, no, the, the platmart swatches app took off and it was crazy. Just made me think like.

[00:52:44] Kalen: In some ways it's like, yeah, you got to build the thing. You got to hustle, you got to sell blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then also if you come across something that just really is needed, I think it can just take off. Like if you come across a pain point, and you just execute nicely, I think it can just take off.

[00:53:06] David: That's the biggest piece I feel like is execute, like, yeah, a problem that needs solving, but also do a really good job solving it. Yeah. And then, yeah.

[00:53:16] Kalen: Yeah. And like, I think I just need to put in more reps, like in dev work and just, all these random client things I'm doing. And then I think something will.

[00:53:28] Kalen: pop up at some point and, I'll probably try a few different things, but I think when people get something to take off, it's like they've been doing the Shopify dev for a long time, and then they see a gap, and then they just like, I've gotten a little bit better at, building different types of apps and I've done a couple and I, then I look back and I'm like, Oh, I should have done this better.

[00:53:50] Kalen: I should have done that better. It just takes time. It just takes. Reps.

[00:53:55] David: Yeah. And then, and being out there and seeing the what do merchants actually need? What are they Yeah. Like what are they struggling with? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good way to go be a little bit into each zone.

[00:54:07] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like something will pop.

[00:54:11] Kalen: I just have to take my time. Like it's, it wasn't gonna be the first little app idea I had and yeah. You know, and it's,

[00:54:20] David: I agree. I've thought about that a lot too.

[00:54:22] Kalen: Yeah, you see the you when you're just you just got to be neck deep in the stuff for like a while And then you start to see more and more things where you're like, well, that's me, there's nothing good here There's nothing good here and you know Like I was thinking about like I was this stupid I pass with NetSuite is annoying and I was like, you know What I'm gonna just build an API connection myself and try to try to start building this out as an app myself.

[00:54:52] Kalen: I got the API connection working to SOAP , but . Oh no. Then I was like, oh, I should use the rest API 'cause it could use this, the SQL suite ql. And then that didn't work, that API connection didn't work. And I was like, oh, that's a NetSuite thing, huh? Yeah, it'll probably take me a while to figure out the connection, but I swear, once I get that done and I get a wrapper for the SOAP XML, or if I don't go the SOAP route and I just go the SQL route, then it gives you just JSON out of the box.

[00:55:29] Kalen: Once I get that stuff done, I think I could replace this IPAS integration pretty quick. And we kind of need to because it's charging too much. And like, we're literally not running all of the workflows because of it's, they're going to charge the client too much. So we keep like the product update. Also the client updates all their products like every day, because they have like automations that are running that shouldn't be, that are touching the product.

[00:56:03] Kalen: So it causes, the, a lot of update triggers, but. So even still like in pure usage, maybe it would cost, I don't know, a few hundred dollars a month, but not like few thousand a month. So

[00:56:20] David: yeah, that's crazy. These iPass companies are like chomping at the bit to be replaced. I feel like it's just so expensive for what it is.

[00:56:29] Kalen: They're milking it. Also, there's just always some, like, there's always these quirks, like logging, for example, like certain things don't log the way I want them to, so that I can just easily find, , this product isn't showing up. Why isn't it showing up? You want to search for the SKU or the ID, whatever, and you want to know that you're going to find a log.

[00:56:54] Kalen: And you can see what's happening. Some, in certain cases, things don't log. Also, you have to configure the columns that show up in the logs. And if you change the columns, they're not retroactive. So like you realize like, Oh, you know what? I should be logging the customer email in this workflow too.

[00:57:11] Kalen: So you change that. But it's not retroactive. So

[00:57:14] David: like if it's that software that doesn't feel good. Like is anyone actually using this and experiencing the pain that I've experienced right now? Apparently not because these things never get fixed.

[00:57:26] Kalen: Yeah. Because every time you're doing this and you're going through, you go, Oh, you know, I need to search on this too.

[00:57:32] Kalen: Oh yeah. Oh, I need this too. And you change it. And then. It's just one of those things you, yeah, exactly. You run across it when you're actually using it. So, and I have to use this stupid thing and answer questions and stuff. So it would make my life easier if I could just have something that could do it, you know, just log the whole payload, make it all searchable or something like that.

[00:57:56] David: Whether or not there was an error, let me see what happened, because like sometimes things just flow through. There was no error, but nothing happened. So like, why did that happen? No idea, because there wasn't an error.

[00:58:06] Kalen: Yeah, and to just be able to have, have the whole thing handled in code. No stupid UIs,

[00:58:14] David (2): all in one step.

[00:58:16] David (2): Just put it all in JavaScript. Step one,

[00:58:20] David: custom code. Just let me do it. I agree. I feel like the way it's going is like okay, bridge the connection. Check. I need to make a little bit of a change, let me put some code in there, but don't complicate my life with like all of the restrictions to where the code can go.

[00:58:39] David: Like there's an in payload and an out payload. Let me adjust some things and don't make it weird. Yeah.

[00:58:48] Kalen: Yeah. And, and then I was thinking like, well, if I do this for this one client and I could go tell this other client, like, I don't know how much they're paying there. I think they're paying,

[00:58:57] David: I wouldn't be surprised if it was like thousands of dollars a month, I think like 30 K a year or something.

[00:59:02] Kalen: So then I was like, well, what I could probably tell him is I could tell him, Hey, I'll rebuild your thing for free and then I can charge, , a fraction like of what they were charging for ongoing.

[00:59:18] Kalen: That should be a pretty easy sell. And if, Yeah. That

[00:59:21] David: sounds interesting.

[00:59:22] Kalen: That was one idea I had, but then I was like, well, now you're on the hook for support, but

[00:59:26] David (2): yep. Which takes us back.

[00:59:32] Kalen: Which takes us back to the first thing. But the thing is you're kind of on the hook for support either way.

[00:59:39] Kalen: Like even if you're the guy that set the thing up, they're still going to come to you and ask you first. Why is this not working?

[00:59:50] David: The difference being you're actually getting some monthly revenue from it because it's your product. So it's actually nicer in that way.

[00:59:58] Kalen: And I feel like you could still charge, you know, Hey, if I need to spend time dealing with something, you could charge for that.

[01:00:04] Kalen: Because again, that's how it is. Now they're paying for my time to deal with it. And then they're paying for the thing. So. If the thing was cheaper, and then my time would also be cheaper because , I wouldn't have to spend so much time on this stupid tool, then it just seems like the whole thing could work out better and it basically, you'd be doing support, but you're already doing support.

[01:00:28] Kalen: , so, I don't know.

[01:00:31] David: There it is. Billion dollars. Oh, and you got templates of what's been useful for everyone else and you can get people up and running quickly and Getting in the door to start paying you money on a monthly basis.

[01:00:44] Kalen: Yeah, we gotta start making some of that internet money

[01:00:48] David (2): Where is the internet dude this week has been tough for me I've just been like

[01:00:53] David: I was sick and then I'm like everything hit at once and I was like, you know what?

[01:00:58] David: This internet thing, like, I'm never going to be able to make internet money because I don't want to support, I'm just going to be, I'm just going to buy, uh, a pottery wheel, and I'm just going to be a poor, like, I'm just going to make mugs for the rest of my life. I'll set up a store. And I'll sell people my coffee mugs.

[01:01:16] David: That'll be better. That'd be awesome.

[01:01:20] Kalen: I just had like a glimpse of like 10 years from now, you have a store selling mugs. I can see like the smile on your face, like the,

[01:01:28] David: Oh yeah, it would be huge. I'm just like out on the back. Porch, like, wake up in the morning, get the kids to school, and then the rest of the day, I'm in the clay.

[01:01:40] David: You know what I mean? Just

[01:01:41] David (2): gonna be spinning the wheel, making some vases, put those on the site, boom.

[01:01:48] Kalen: Nice.

[01:01:50] David: That's my retirement plan, by the way.

[01:01:53] Kalen: I love that, dude. I love that. No, I literally just visualized you, like, being happy, making, making That's cool.

[01:02:07] David: They gotta be special mugs somehow. You know? Yeah.

[01:02:11] David: Some sort of interesting feature. Like personalized or like, I don't know, like what, what do, what do coffee mugs need? What's wrong with coffee mugs? There's nothing wrong with coffee mugs. Maybe I can put some like interesting. You make each

[01:02:28] David (2): one by hand. Oh, like made to

[01:02:29] David: order.

[01:02:29] David (2): And you just,

[01:02:30] Kalen: yeah, you just come up with some idea for a mug and you just make them all one of a kind, with, you know, whatever comes to mind.

[01:02:39] David: There's an idea. Oh yeah.