Declarative Metafields, Declarative Regrets

[00:00:00] Kalen: That zero to one moment where you're, you're super foggy on what the code base did. Yeah. It's like, it's always been like a bewildering experience. Like, has that happened

[00:00:11] David: to you like multiple times now?

[00:00:14] Kalen: So many times. Like, and makes you go, am I this horrible of a programmer? That none of my file names make sense?

[00:00:23] None of my variables make sense. Nothing at all is intuitive whatsoever, and, and like it takes so long. So it's great for

[00:00:32] David: disorganized people. That's yay.

[00:00:43] Kalen: This episode is brought to you by smile.io. The loyalty platform trusted by thousands of the fastest growing Shopify Plus businesses to increase repeat purchases, reward VIPs, and build lasting customer relationships. Smile helps businesses become more profitable while discounting their products less.

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[00:01:24] Little country bro. Little country music dude. Oh yeah. Out there in Texas. Way. Exactly. Were you ever into country music or are you slash into country music?

[00:01:38] David: I grew up in the Midwest, so we did have some country music. Right. And so I know all of it because it was just playing in the car, but I don't seek it out ever.

[00:01:48] Right.

[00:01:48] Kalen: Fucking hate it. I mean, my whole life, that's how, my whole life, that's how I felt. I, I, I was not into it at all. I got into it like a year or two ago. It's like all I listen to now, it's like my whole personality. It's

[00:02:00] David: very

[00:02:01] Kalen: emotional music, you know? Right. Well, so, and I didn't realize you listen to metal, right?

[00:02:07] Yeah. I listen to that. Lots of different things. Would you consider like metal to be emotional? I mean, it is,

[00:02:15] David: right? Or is it more just angry, I guess? I mean, I guess all music is emotional, but it just feels like, uh, country kind of takes it up a notch.

[00:02:24] Kalen: I think some music is more emotional than others, like definitely.

[00:02:28] But I might superficially be like, well, metal is not really emotional, but you might be like, no, it totally is. You just have, I don't know.

[00:02:36] David: Oh, yeah. I mean, yelling is, is quite a, an emotion,

[00:02:40] Kalen: right, by the way. Okay. I, I was looking for the timer. I was paranoid looking to make sure the timer and I couldn't see it.

[00:02:50] 'cause it was like it's in a different place than the web interface now. Oh yeah.

[00:02:54] David: Stupid.

[00:02:55] Kalen: Running

[00:02:55] David: the web app.

[00:02:56] Kalen: Desktop. Yeah. Stupid. Never trust a desktop app like it. Like, unless it's one of like two web things that have become a desktop app in the, in the world that successfully made it reasonable. No, honestly, there's a lot of good desktop apps.

[00:03:11] It's anything that's multimedia related. You should not trust a desktop like conversion. Like if it's originally desktop, you're golden. But if it transitioned from web to desktop, never trust that by, yeah, by any means.

[00:03:27] David: They used the same engineers to make the other one and it just didn't work out the same in both cases.

[00:03:35] Kalen: That's exactly it. Like multimedia type engineers doing desktop stuff, that's a different breed. Dude, I don't know who built OBS. That's a Russian guy, like writing C code. Oh yeah. But like with, they're in the

[00:03:50] David: numbers, they're in the memory cores, you know, memory

[00:03:55] Kalen: cores. Dude, I saw this, it's funny, I see all these AI videos and stuff, and then I saw this video of this guy just coding in line.

[00:04:04] I think it was VI or something, but like no auto complete. Like it probably wasn't even Vim. I think it was like OG VI,

[00:04:12] David: like he just writes a notepad.

[00:04:15] Kalen: He was writing C code, like he was doing like structs and like pointers. Like all sorts of underscores, like all over. Even doing a for loop is like, so like he did one instead of like an i plus plus for incrementing the variable of the loop.

[00:04:34] He did a plus plus I, which I remember it's like, uh, I vaguely remember the distinction, but there's no. Part of my brain that understands

[00:04:44] David: will I ever use that?

[00:04:45] Kalen: Yeah. Like all my brain is screaming is dumb it down for me and gimme one.

[00:04:51] David: You know

[00:04:52] Kalen: what I mean?

[00:04:53] David: Yeah. I feel like video game programmers are kind of in that area still where they're like doing crazy optimization stuff.

[00:05:00] It's always fun to watch. Like there's this guy that has a huge series on just programming video games, like on Windows, and he gets into all that stuff. Nice.

[00:05:10] Kalen: Is he like a streamer or something? Like a coding streamer or,

[00:05:13] David: no, it was like a, it was just a YouTube series, but there are a ton of people who do the like twitch streaming.

[00:05:19] Right of code. And it's pretty, those seem like they're more like people who are personalities and this guy is just like, all right, we're gonna take this freaking computer to its limits and have 500 million things running around the screen and it's gonna be performant. Nice. And like you can just tell they know

[00:05:36] Kalen: things nice.

[00:05:39] They, they know things that we just don't. That's how it was back in the day, dude. Like people would just know things and like you were lucky if you could find something on a forum like now. Oh yeah. Anybody can learn anything immediately, but it's like back in the day, there was some dark arts to it.

[00:05:55] David: You had to be real committed.

[00:05:57] Yeah. Library and read a book.

[00:06:00] Kalen: Yeah. Operate FRI Systems. Frigging remember the day that I checked out the magic machine from the public library, which is like, what's that? This book from the seventies, it's like a rainbow colored computer, like cheesy looking 3D graphic type deal. And I don't even remember what it was about, but it was just about programming.

[00:06:23] It was like, I don't know, it was like the wonder of pro. And I remember reading it, just like absolutely loving it. I should pro I gotta read it again.

[00:06:30] David: Heck yeah, dude. You gotta find out what that was. Nerd out. Look that up. Yeah. Now they have, uh, like my, my son has rocket science for babies. Have you seen those?

[00:06:42] Rocket science?

[00:06:43] Kalen: I don't think so. No.

[00:06:44] David: It's a little series. There's rocket science for babies. There's like general relativity for babies. Nice. And they're just like explaining these concepts through shapes. They're actually pretty good.

[00:06:55] Kalen: That's wild. That's pretty cool. Dude. I freaking miss talking to you man.

[00:07:00] Yeah, it's been a while. No homo. Yeah. So yeah, dude, has it been four full weeks?

[00:07:06] David: Yeah. 'cause we do this every two weeks and we missed Yeah. Last week. Last last cast.

[00:07:13] Kalen: You were, you were out of town for the last cast. I had to, I had to do it with some other guy, you know. Yeah. My man. That sounded wrong. I had to, uh, I saw the clip bring in Dylan and uh, yeah.

[00:07:26] Uh, and believe me, I get reader comments every time you're not on the show. We have what? Oh yeah, that guy's super

[00:07:32] David: interesting. They're not happy.

[00:07:34] Kalen: No, but I can already hear the reader comments coming in that they're like, yeah, dude, I missed having David that week, man, what the hell? Yeah, guess we, or actually he goes, actually he says your friend, because he literally doesn't, we never say names.

[00:07:48] We don't do the whole bullshit intro. Hey, I'm David blah. Welcome to Kalin Jordan. You know what I mean's? Podcast. Which I kind of love like, it's like, I don't know, I just sort of, I remember there was like one podcast I listened to back in the day. It was just like two guys, and it was just like. Fun. You know, it just like, totally like nothing promotional at all about it.

[00:08:12] David: Yeah. The ham radio roots of podcasts, right?

[00:08:16] Kalen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Don't get me wrong, there are, there are a couple promotional items

[00:08:22] David: that we'll get to in a minute,

[00:08:27] Kalen: but wait, there's more. Dude, my microphone situation is so wild today. You got the pencil in the hat, bro. Yes. However, there's normally a phone jack thing that plugs into my square road, rectangle, Joby, and I pinned that microphone, like Lavelle mic to the pencil, but the, the plugin Lavelle mic stopped working.

[00:08:52] So I just have the square thing on a pencil. It's like, it's like gonna fall out of my hat because it's like heavy, you know? But I think it's, I think it's mostly gets the job

[00:09:04] David: done.

[00:09:04] Kalen: Gets the job done. But you were at a frigging festival, huh?

[00:09:09] David: Oh yeah. Is that what that I was like, I can't remember why, but yeah, I went to a dude,

[00:09:13] Kalen: you're, you're like, you're talking about, you're like dystopia, you're like, yeah, just a couple old guys that like metal.

[00:09:19] I pull the website up. Bunch of hot chicks too.

[00:09:23] David: Oh no. It was, uh, it's dance music, so that's why they got like the crazy dress up people. Yeah. So yeah, it was awesome.

[00:09:31] Kalen: That's cool, man. Yeah. I gotta do something like that with you days. Heck

[00:09:35] David: yeah. It's a little wild and you have to stand a lot. So I started right when I got back, I looked up like luxury blowup couch.

[00:09:44] 'cause everyone had those blowup couches and I was so jealous.

[00:09:50] Kalen: Luxury blowup count.

[00:09:52] David: Yeah. That's hilarious. There isn't really a big market of this. That's so funny. But they are expensive.

[00:09:58] Kalen: That's so funny, dude. All right, well diving into some of our Shopify content for today. So I saw Tobs tweeted out the, uh, meta Ray bands. He said they're freaking amazing. It's like, uh, gradually and then suddenly with everything like AI was just gradually like, no, it's not.

[00:10:17] It's not. And then all of a sudden it's it. And I, and I know that's gonna happen with the whole glasses VR thing. It's just like, you know, they've had different announcements. There was the Google glasses, they just sort of like flopped, whatever. But I feel like this might be it, man. I feel like this might be the moment where it like it goes, which

[00:10:33] David: it does crazy seem pretty cool.

[00:10:34] I feel like the Oakley version is the one I would go for 'cause they're way cooler and more robotic. But also, I don't know what happened, but the first thing I saw was all of the, like the demos were failing and then the very next thing was like, these things are actually awesome. So like there was some sort of amazing PR sprint that happened, or like, they just really are.

[00:10:58] Kalen: Cool. Right. Wait, what? The PR sprint on making them seem cool or?

[00:11:03] David: Yeah, like fixing the live demo issue by covering it with like all this positive coverage. But they like, these are the glasses that they released a preview for that. Like they showed some celebrity people trying them out. Right. And now they're like actually releasing.

[00:11:18] Is that what this is?

[00:11:19] Kalen: Honestly, I don't know. I always lose track of what the hell's going on with these things. I, I think I try to pair it the target and like the audio was cool, like the bone conducting audio was like super cool. Oh yeah. I'm just like, I know at some point it's gonna hit, it's gonna become like phones.

[00:11:34] Everyone's gonna have them and it's always impossible to predict, you know? It could be now, it could be 10 years from now, but I just, it'd be crazy if like it see, you know, it seems like it's getting good. Like it's super crazy. I'm gonna definitely try 'em out. Yeah.

[00:11:46] David: I feel like the, one of the first things everyone kind of thinks about is like whether or not they're recording all the time.

[00:11:52] 'cause that's one of the things that'll be weird. I feel like with everyone running around with these, dude,

[00:11:57] Kalen: I saw a video of a girl yelling at this dude that he was recording her. It was like on TikTok, she was like, why are you recording me? Stop recording me. He's like, I'm not, these aren't even, you know, these are just cheap glasses, blah.

[00:12:10] They're just regular glasses.

[00:12:14] And she was like tearing him off. She was like ripping him a new one. And then I'm watching the video and I'm going, I don't know, maybe he's lying, but he really sounds believable. Or like, you know, it's gonna get weird, dude.

[00:12:27] David: It's gonna get real weird. It's gonna get weird ski. I am excited though, like having some way to record what's happening in my life other than me writing things down.

[00:12:39] Sounds great to me.

[00:12:40] Kalen: Oh man. The magic of being able to take a photo right in the moment without that little. Yeah. Few seconds delay having to pull your like, man, I feel like you're just gonna capture like so many incredible moments. Totally. You know, your kids and all of the, uh,

[00:12:57] David: something, right. My phone has been making these videos.

[00:13:01] Like all the time, you know, like they, they just make videos of your, of your pictures. Right. So those are gonna get way cooler. I already, I already think those are awesome.

[00:13:10] Kalen: I mean, dude, literally, I mean, it's practically like every single time, uh, like it sends me and my wife a memory video mm-hmm. From like X years ago.

[00:13:21] It's guaranteed we're gonna cry. Like, it's not like it has a hundred percent hit rate on making us cry. It's ridiculous. Like, the conversion rate on the emotion, like intensity is nuts. Yeah.

[00:13:39] David: I'm excited to try 'em out. Like I said, I, I feel like, I don't know, is the, do the Oakleys have like a bigger image thing?

[00:13:46] That would be cool.

[00:13:47] Kalen: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It does look like, it does look like there's, there's more screen

[00:13:51] David: plus those are like, not as much more expensive. Like Oakleys already kind of cost that amount, don't they?

[00:13:57] Kalen: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:58] David: Well, you know, there's just a whole computer in there.

[00:14:00] Kalen: Yeah, I had a whole ass computer in there.

[00:14:03] I got some Oakleys like, I don't know, a year or so ago, and it's like my whole personality now, like I went to the point where it's like probably weird. Like I wear the same ones every time. They're like the rainbow glasses and like, yeah, I feel like wish I had part of your

[00:14:18] David: pickleball uniform.

[00:14:19] Kalen: Yeah, it's literally my uniform.

[00:14:20] But the thing is, is that like. I gotten so used to having sunglasses. You just have to have 'em. And then like I needed, like the cheaper ones don't stick to your head when you're like moving around, running around like crazy. So I needed like which, what did

[00:14:33] David: you get? Did you get the wraparound ones that go all the way around your skull?

[00:14:37] No,

[00:14:37] Kalen: no, no, no, no. They're just regular. They're just regular. But literally like regular glasses, like if you're running around, diving around, dude, they're flopping all over the place.

[00:14:46] David: So gotta be pickleball ready.

[00:14:48] Kalen: Yeah, dude. Have to be, have to be. All right. Let's see. Quick shout out. Okay, listener, shout out to um, Pablo.

[00:14:59] It's funny, I've seen 'em online for a little while and I always thought his company name was like the coolest company name. It's Peanut Butter Collective. Nice. I think he has like a small agency type of thing. It's funny, I just literally rem, I don't know if it was nine months ago, a year ago, whatever. I just remember like seeing that and being like, that's like such a cool little company name.

[00:15:19] He said he listens. He, he like happened. We were, he happened to mention that he listens to the podcast. I was like, nice dude. Listen to, uh, a little listener. Shout out.

[00:15:30] David: Shout

[00:15:30] Kalen: out. Yeah. Lit. Literally everyone, all six of you guys. Yeah. Listen, kidding. Shout. Let let us know you don't have any idea how happy it makes you, that you're not just completely fucking rambling into the void like an idiot.

[00:15:50] I mean, we are,

[00:15:52] David: yeah. It doesn't change anything about what's happening here, but thanks for listening.

[00:15:58] Kalen: All right, so have you seen Comm Slayer?

[00:16:01] David: Yes. The guy with the, that looks like a wizard.

[00:16:05] Kalen: Yeah, I think his name's Carrie or something like that. It's funny because his avatar is like clearly like a fake looking, like old man avatar Uhhuh.

[00:16:12] And that's what I'm like used to seeing and I like, I don't know, I like, I maybe clicked on it once and zoomed in and I was like, okay, yeah, he wanna see his face, but then like he posted like a video or something and I was like, who is that? That, that like, 'cause you get so used to an avatar. Yeah. And it sort of makes you like, feel like you kind of understand their personality type of a thing.

[00:16:31] Uhhuh. So I think I literally think of him as like an old guy, even though I know, you know, it's a weird, like it's a weird thing, but he's probably like 20 something. I don't know. But yeah, I think about that all the time too. You do? That's hilarious. And I think he built an app called Life Timely back in the day.

[00:16:52] He's like hardcore og. I think he like got out of the game for a while and got back. I can't remember. But we use Live Timely.

[00:16:59] David: It's pretty

[00:16:59] Kalen: cool. You still use it? Mm-hmm. Oh, nice. That's cool, man. Yeah, it, I mean, it seems like it, it, it just has had a, like, successful life post-acquisition, which is cool. But yeah, so, so cons layer is like a support ticket system, and like, he basically like antagonizes gorgeous, pretty much like

[00:17:20] David: Yeah,

[00:17:20] Kalen: you, like constantly trolls them, but, but also like, they're one of the, you know, gorgeous, like one of these SAS apps, like got successful, kept increasing their prices, blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:30] And like, I'm sure it's worth it, right? Like, I'm sure it's worth the price tag for the value they're creating, but it's still those that can't

[00:17:37] David: afford it.

[00:17:38] Kalen: Yeah. You know, it's just everybody hates the price of apps going up, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, it's just gone to such an extreme that like, there's sort of like, there's like a visceral, like, hatred for it, I think.

[00:17:49] Like, but anyways, so like, it just, it freaking cracks me up so much and it's like, it made me think like it would be fun to try to do that, like find a villain, you know, app. Mm-hmm. And just try to completely like, take them out. You know what I mean? Do it.

[00:18:10] David: I saw, I saw what you said about what you were gonna try and do.

[00:18:14] Oh yeah.

[00:18:16] Kalen: How funny would that be if I got back in an email? I mean, I don't know, like Klaviyo's obviously crazy expensive. I mean, I know there's other ones. Yeah. But like, yeah, I don't know. Like, it, there's

[00:18:25] David: also like an existing Shopify app that helps you do emails. Right. But like, it's probably pretty bare bones, like made by Shopify.

[00:18:34] Kalen: Right, right. Oh, I just remembered Sao. Segundo is, they're basically doing everything right. I mean, I don't know what their pricing is, but I assume it's competitive. But you know, when there's an app you just like, they're just perfect. Like they're too good. They're already like serving the market, like I think really well, but I don't know.

[00:18:53] I don't know too much about the details. There's know, they're like super Shopify native and

[00:18:56] David: Oh, gotcha. The pricing looks pretty, pretty competitive actually. So guess, guess you're not doing email. Yeah. So let's skip email. Shit. Go back to the drawing quote on that.

[00:19:07] Kalen: But there, I mean, I don't know. There still has to be a way to carve out like some Klaviyo users with like a specific feature set for whatever reason that like.

[00:19:17] Matches what like a group of people use and like have like a one click install, instant migration, you know?

[00:19:25] David: Right.

[00:19:26] Kalen: There has to be a way to do that. I'd, I'd imagine They're like, you know, they're not like out here troll marketing against cloud. Yeah.

[00:19:33] David: Like,

[00:19:34] Kalen: it's kind of awesome.

[00:19:37] David: Like it's fun to, to watch.

[00:19:40] It's fun. Like,

[00:19:41] Kalen: yeah, it's fun. Like you, you know, you wanna see people compete. I don't know if it's, if that's a bad feeling or if it's just natural. You just wanna see people compete like, mm-hmm. And when there's the incumbent that's kind of like. It feels like they're probably resting on their laurels a bit.

[00:19:56] A little not to. I'm sure they're all busy, working hard. I mean, probably working. Yeah. But somehow as an organization you just get in, like, I don't know. You just,

[00:20:06] David: you try to focus on different things to differentiate even more, or, yeah.

[00:20:10] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:20:11] David: Like somehow you lose focus or you start not doing things fast enough and stuff like

[00:20:16] Kalen: that.

[00:20:16] Yeah. You want to cheer for the underdog. Like that's, every movie is like wanting to cheer for the underdog. You know what I mean? I was, I was thinking like, you know how there's like community advocates or whatever, like a brand will have like some kind of influencer program or whatever. Mm-hmm. And they call them like brand advocates or whatever.

[00:20:34] Like I want to be like a community antagonist.

[00:20:40] David: Like you Yeah.

[00:20:41] Kalen: Like I wanna literally like have him sit, like send me like swag and marketing material and like my job will just be to like trash gorgeous. Like, and get like referral. Get a referral cut of like any referrals that tried

[00:20:59] David: that mention you.

[00:21:01] Kalen: It's so toxic, dude.

[00:21:03] It's so toxic. But it

[00:21:05] David: would be so. I bet that, I bet that's happening somewhere. Yeah, that

[00:21:10] Kalen: would

[00:21:11] David: be funny.

[00:21:11] Kalen: But, um, yeah, by the way, I forgot to add, I don't know if you have any list bullet points. I don't wanna assume there's any list bullets that I'm, I'm skipping over if you got Yeah,

[00:21:22] David: don't, don't skip my bullets.

[00:21:25] Um, uh, I've been, uh, I've been playing around with, um, Shopify's analytics dashboard a bit lately. Oh, nice. It's been pretty sweet. I put together like a, it's really easy to put together a little like checkout funnel analysis and change stuff around. Mm-hmm. Nice.

[00:21:47] Kalen: Oh, that's cool.

[00:21:48] David: And you can, you can like segment by channel, like, so people that are coming in from Google search or whatever, or like, they even have a way for you to exclude sessions with a session length of like less than one.

[00:22:02] So you can filter out bot traffic. So there's a bunch of like nice, really nice little things that they've been including into that SQL editor that make it pretty usable. Like actually usable.

[00:22:12] Kalen: Yeah. That's so cool. Were you able to drill into any like little nice little nuggets? Like any actionable

[00:22:19] David: I, yeah.

[00:22:20] Yeah. I've been looking at like, like wait, was this

[00:22:23] Kalen: analytics Monday? Was this on an analytics Monday that you did this?

[00:22:27] David: Uh, I've been carrying it through the week this week, but yeah, it was,

[00:22:34] Kalen: it was an analytics Monday. That got you on a powerful Yeah, it started

[00:22:38] David: leaking.

[00:22:39] Kalen: Nice.

[00:22:40] David: Wait. But yeah, it was nice. I got to like, you can, you can look at year over year. So like I saw that, like for example, I think we should do some testing at the last step in checkout. 'cause like we don't have anything there.

[00:22:51] Mm-hmm. And so we did some research and like, oh, here's what some other brands are doing. So I've been working on that. Trying to figure out some interesting stuff to put there. I got the last step.

[00:23:00] Kalen: Nice dude. Was there like something you were able to drill into in the analytics to where it like validated the thing or like

[00:23:07] David: just comparing year over year, like each step in the funnel, you can see like, okay.

[00:23:12] The year over year, we have 15% more people adding to bag. Right. But over at checkout there's like lower, uh, like it actually went down. So, uh, you can kind of see like, okay, if our conversion rate is lower, it's not because of like lower add to bags.

[00:23:26] Kalen: Right. So then that basically confirmed that like, okay, our conversion rate is sort of going down, down, so we should like start trying some things.

[00:23:34] David: Yeah. I mean if we, and it's, it depends on which way you look at it too. Like, a lot of the time we look at year over year stuff and so last year we had a, a really nice product launch. So like year over year we're trying to understand like, okay, we, you know, that product launch didn't really well last year versus the ones this year.

[00:23:52] So, but then if like, you can look at it across different months. Mm-hmm. And Shopify is like actually able to follow along with looking at like, the way that you wanna slice it based on timing and, and comparisons. Mm-hmm. All seems to like be there.

[00:24:05] Kalen: So. Cool.

[00:24:06] David: Yeah.

[00:24:07] Kalen: Nice. And so you were just able to drill in and then you're like, okay, let me remove the bot traffic.

[00:24:12] Nice. Yeah,

[00:24:12] David: exactly. Like does the, does the same conclusion still hold true if I Right. Slice it this way.

[00:24:18] Kalen: Right. And how do you know whether to say, okay, like conversion's been going down. Do we need to remove stuff in our checkout or do we need to add stuff? You just kind of go with your gut on that? Or

[00:24:30] David: We don't have anything in checkout.

[00:24:32] Like if you go com you don't have any, like

[00:24:35] Kalen: you're a hundred percent pure native, no post-purchase, nothing. No,

[00:24:41] David: no. Like a lot of those. Um, so we don't do any upsells or anything in the cart. That was my first thing, like, are there, you know, should I be looking at apps for, for checkout? But like most apps are just upsell apps.

[00:24:53] Kalen: What about a post-purchase? You're not doing any post-purchase quiz or, uh,

[00:24:58] David: we do fairing. Which is, um, like, tell us where you heard about us. That's pretty interesting too. Like some stuff people put in there, like chat gpt is sometimes one of the things, which is kind of interesting. That's cool. And you can see chat GT in the, like in the sessions session refers it's starting to show up higher, which is interesting.

[00:25:18] Mm-hmm. Oh, this is a cool topic. I had a, the call with our Shopify rep this week. Okay. Um, Mara, shout out to Mara, shout out, and she mentioned this app, the Knowledge Base app by Shopify. Have you heard of this, right?

[00:25:32] Kalen: Yes.

[00:25:33] David: I thought it was just a knowledge base and I was like, I don't care about this. We have, we have Zendesk knowledge base, but apparently what it can do is actually tell you the queries that agents have had to your store and help you define FAQs for them.

[00:25:52] Yeah. And there's like, there's a query log. Like you can go in and see what the log of queries is that agents have had against your store. I had no idea. It was like what? It's like secret info.

[00:26:04] Kalen: Wait a minute. That is wild. You know what? You know what would be interesting? I wonder if they're gonna develop a protocol where like you can see the underlying prompt.

[00:26:13] Probably not. No, probably not. For

[00:26:15] David: privacy. Yeah, privacy. But still like the, what ended up being asked I think is pretty, oh yeah. So pretty interesting.

[00:26:22] Kalen: Super interesting. Wow, that's so cool. This other dude had mentioned that he sort of like LLM optimized his. I don't know if it was his Shopify agency, I think it was his Shopify agency.

[00:26:35] Mm-hmm. And I was like, well, how can you optimize for LLMs? And he just basically said, he asked Chad, GBT, like, why am I not the answer to like X question or something like that? Like, Uhhuh, what's the best Shopify development, blah, blah, blah. Like, and then he would just do what it told him to do. And he said it started to help.

[00:26:55] That's cool. Which is crazy, but I mean, I think long term they're just gonna get smarter and smarter, but like, so literally when you ask it, what should I do? It's gonna ultimately, basically just give you feedback on how to be better at the thing.

[00:27:11] David: Yeah. Because it, it, it doesn't, it probably doesn't explicitly know.

[00:27:16] Why it arrives to certain conclusions all the time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But it, it'll know best practices or something. Yeah. Which like best practices for generative engine optimization, whatever you want to call it. I've been reading about that and basically it's just like, keep doing SEO and also make sure that there's information about you around the web.

[00:27:40] So like mm-hmm. Answer questions about your product in as many places as you can and stuff like that. Yeah.

[00:27:45] Kalen: Yeah. Like that's where like, I just think it's literally gonna be just best practice, you know? And it's gonna be smart best practice. Like it's, it's gonna be probably the best way, but it's just literally like tutoring you like how to be.

[00:27:59] Yeah, a better thing like, or how to communicate that you're a better thing, I guess. Mm-hmm. But yeah, that's pretty crazy. This dude Ika on Twitter, uh, I think he has an app called Kaching. He posted an audio clip of a, like AI follow up agent. It like called someone and like asked them, it called a customer, like live.

[00:28:24] And it asked them like, I don't know, I think it was gonna try to upsell them or something, or then they said they canceled and it asked why they canceled and then it like offered a coupon code if they decide to reactivate or whatever. Like it was just. The person didn't realize it was ai. I, when I was listening to it, I was thinking, wow, this voice doesn't sound very realistic, but the person literally just talked to them for like a couple minutes is totally nuts.

[00:28:49] Yeah. We we

[00:28:49] David: have that. You have

[00:28:50] Kalen: that?

[00:28:51] David: Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah. It's pretty sweet. It works really well. It's through Crescendo, Crescendo's our, like ai, like customer service partner

[00:29:01] Kalen: that's freaking crazy

[00:29:03] David: and they have like this predictive customer satisfaction bar and all this stuff. It's pretty sweet.

[00:29:09] Kalen: Dude. That is nuts. Wait, so have you listened in on some of them?

[00:29:14] David: No, I haven't listened in on any of the, like, customer calls or anything. I, I think you'd get like a transcript is what you get.

[00:29:20] Kalen: Um, I would be so curious to listen to that. 'cause does it give you a percentage of which people like hung up the phone?

[00:29:28] David: Yeah, it'll tell you like if it was answered, I forget what the term is. So if the question was answered or if they had to pass it off, and then like, the customer satisfaction score csat, whatever that stands for.

[00:29:40] Kalen: Right. But like, do they have a count of the number of times the person went, like, uh, this is ai.

[00:29:45] I'm hanging up, type of thing.

[00:29:48] David: I'll have to go search that. I, I bet that text would be in there, but Yeah. Like

[00:29:52] Kalen: what percentage of people like, just think it's real and it's like,

[00:29:57] David: yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I bet most people know it's not real, but it works really well. It's not completely robotic.

[00:30:05] But it's also like not perfect, like it, it'll start saying things and then you can start saying something and it'll cut it off, like start listening to you. So it's like, it's not cheesy, it's like pretty state of the art I feel like, in terms of what tends to happen with those like AI voice kind of setups these days.

[00:30:23] Kalen: Dude, I didn't realize that stuff was out in the, while. They thought it was only like Google had built that out and had it like really good, but that's,

[00:30:32] David: oh yeah, it's real. That's, and like some we're trying to do like some emails and then there's interesting problems like certain replies to emails like accidentally get routed to the AI doctor.

[00:30:44] So it's uh, gotta work through some new stuff, which is interesting.

[00:30:48] Kalen: Nice. That's cool. That's so funny, man. I feel like I want to use it. I'm like the growth factor. Yeah. Just go the call.

[00:30:56] David: I have to use this. It's sweet. Like to spam people,

[00:31:01] Kalen: like I wanna start spamming people with it.

[00:31:04] David: Oh, like calling out. It's

[00:31:05] Kalen: horrible.

[00:31:06] Yeah,

[00:31:06] David: dude. I wanna start spa back immediately. No. Oh, that's marketing. Caitlyn. Get outta my head.

[00:31:16] Kalen: It's literally, there's an evil demon and there's like an angel. I, I have two sides, dude. And I slip in, dude, I slip in. It's disgusting. I, there was this one show, I forget what it's called, but this one guy was kind of a douche bag and then they, they made him have a douche bag jar where every time he was a douche bag, he had to put a dollar in the jar.

[00:31:39] So then they would just randomly like, you know, tell him to put a in a jar. Okay, quick shout out to Liam, the, the best community manager of all time. The forums are great, man. You know, I saw somebody post, you know, about complaining about customer support. I guess there's something going on. I don't know if they changed some tier thing for par.

[00:31:58] I don't, I don't know. I don't know what they did, but. The only thought I have, dude, is like, is there any software company in the world that gives good support? I don't think there is. Somebody mentioned Apple, but first of all, apple does hardware and software and also like I haven't had to use Apple support like more than once in a decade, and I think it was pretty solid.

[00:32:22] But for whatever reason, I don't know. They're not the same thing. Like they're not releasing software at, at a pace. You know what I mean?

[00:32:31] David: Yeah, yeah. To like have to try and keep up. I mean, yeah. I, I guess it's specific, like maybe Apple's better at splitting up their stuff. 'cause like, I, I had a question about my Apple card the other day, like I had some charge or something that I was asking about, and you can just iMessage them and talk to them.

[00:32:47] It's pretty sweet. It's crazy.

[00:32:48] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:32:49] David: No, it's pretty, it's pretty good. Yeah. Like Google does horrible. Yeah,

[00:32:56] Kalen: they're all horrible. I mean, it's, it's like, it literally tripped me out. I was like, how is it that Shopify can't do this? Because they do everything so well. You know, like that's what makes them Shopify.

[00:33:09] Like they do an event and it's like the most incredibly well done event in the world, you know, and they do, you know, whatever. I think it's not possible at scale for whatever reason, like to have the correct level of technical skill at the correct price that makes it work. Like

[00:33:28] David: I just don't, that routing is hard, like the Right, there's not an easy way to segment the, the need for support into smaller buckets.

[00:33:38] Yeah.

[00:33:38] Kalen: Yeah. And it's like smaller companies can do great support. I mean, I had a software company. Mm-hmm. I did great support, but like at scale, I think it's impossible. So, and then the forums, like, I posted a question recently with the forums. Got a reply from a staff member, it was either same day or the next day.

[00:33:56] And then I noticed it was a new staff member who I hadn't seen before. So it was like, I was thinking they're adding to the team. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm just, and then the, the last question I had asked before that also got like a solid reply. I'm like, dude, like the forum support is great. I literally don't want them to invest in like one-on-one customer support.

[00:34:19] Just like, I don't care. Just don't do it. Make it all ai. And then for some gigantic company that is at whatever price point and they want to talk to real engineers, like, okay, they get that. So,

[00:34:31] David: yeah.

[00:34:32] Kalen: Yeah, that'd be great.

[00:34:33] David: Um, I mean, you do have like an account manager if you're, we have an account manager, but most of the time it's like.

[00:34:41] We just ask support. But then if

[00:34:42] Kalen: there's, they just, yeah, and all they do is tell you to contact support. And also somebody posted something about plus reps getting pulled. I think I just saw that today. I think they might, oh,

[00:34:53] David: starting to. I've had the same one for a while.

[00:34:54] Kalen: Okay, brother. I keep trying to tell.

[00:34:56] You're on a different tier,

[00:34:58] David: my man. Oh, you mean like we're no longer gonna have one? That would be sad.

[00:35:02] Kalen: Like I think that the smaller brands are probably gonna get their plus rep pulled, but you guys,

[00:35:09] David: but if you're on Plus, that'd be weird. Like you're paying, yeah. Hopefully that's not the case. But yeah, I don't know.

[00:35:14] Kalen: I mean,

[00:35:15] David: I don't know would be like something's going on with support, like you were saying, like maybe, yeah,

[00:35:20] Kalen: I could be imagining it, but I could have sworn somebody tweeted that today. Something about reps and plus, I don't know whether they do or not. Like I just think it's, I don't know. I just, that's just not possible.

[00:35:31] Like, I don't know why it seems like it should be possible. And that's not to say that like customer service people should be like, let go. Like you don't want anybody to get let go, but mm-hmm. You can have them do different things. I mean, there's tons of things they could do within the company. You don't have to fire anybody.

[00:35:45] You know what I mean?

[00:35:47] David: Yeah. Um, I mean that, that is one of the, like the areas that, like Sam Altman always mentions as one of the ones that he feels like is, is more at risk.

[00:35:56] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:35:57] David: Is customer service. Yeah. But like, same thing as like with programmers, you, you kind of lose the bottom tier people who are like kind of getting by and then the people who are doing okay just like get way more effective.

[00:36:10] Right. The same thing kind of happens there.

[00:36:12] Kalen: Yeah. I think something can happen everywhere and, um. But, you know, I think there's, you know, there's a ton of things that they can do. Yeah.

[00:36:21] David: Work changes,

[00:36:21] Kalen: but like, yeah, and I mean, like, I want it to go ai, like for example, like with Gadget, like when they had their AI thing, I, which I basically just used to ask questions about like, how do I do this feature?

[00:36:32] Or things that in the past, like I'd have to search the docs. The docs were always a mess. And then I'd have to contact support and wait around. I'm so happy that I can get a decent percentage of those questions handled through ai, and it's only gonna get better. And it's like, totally, it's the only thing that's gonna finally solve, like, we're all used to big software companies having shitty support for the basic support stuff that you need.

[00:36:57] And it's like, it's literally finally gonna be solved. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Because it's

[00:37:03] David: just knowledge transfer most of the time. And, and that's what's getting solved. Like I was working on this project like three months ago. And today I finally picked up a ticket to like go back and finish it up.

[00:37:14] I was like, Hey, Claude, how do I do stuff here again? And it just started going. It was awesome. Right, right, right, right,

[00:37:21] Kalen: right, right,

[00:37:22] David: right. Otherwise I would've been like, where is that query that I had

[00:37:25] Kalen: and. That's kind of a surprising one, that it, that zero to one moment where you're, you're super foggy on what the code base did.

[00:37:35] Yeah. It's like, it's always been like a bewildering experience. Like, has that

[00:37:41] David: happened to you like multiple times now? Dude,

[00:37:43] Kalen: so many times. Like, and makes you. Am I this horrible of a programmer that none of my file names make sense? None of my variables make sense. Nothing at all is intuitive whatsoever and and like it takes so long, long.

[00:38:01] So it's great for

[00:38:02] David: disorganized people, that's yay.

[00:38:06] Kalen: But I think so much about context now. It's like, it's funny, the phrase like context of is everything has like a totally different meaning now. Mm-hmm. But like I think it's context. Like you build that context up in your head over a period of time and then it has like a half life that it decays or something like that.

[00:38:26] And so then in your head you go, well. I should be able to understand this thing. Like I understood this thing in the past, I should be able to understand this thing now. But you're not thinking about the fact that you spent time building up this context and then retaining it. So then for that period of time, just like clade, when it has good away, when it has good context, it's a totally different animal than when it has when before it's built up the context and it's like, we're just like that.

[00:38:54] David: Yeah. But then like also we're able to pull that back. It must get stored somewhere like and deep in a filing cabinet and then mm-hmm. Like Claudes open in the filing cabinet for me now and grabbing the folder that I'm supposed to have. And then like, I'm like, oh yeah, now I remember everything. Right.

[00:39:11] Like, thanks dude.

[00:39:12] Kalen: Right. Because it, yeah, it's so like, it doesn't just like fast forward the process. It like fast forwards it and then it like gets to a chunk and then it's just like a step increase in speed. 'cause you just immediate it immediately. Clicks back into your head like, so much faster. Why did we start talking about that?

[00:39:33] I forgot that. I forgot. I dunno, I forgot what the broader point was. Support or something.

[00:39:42] David: I dunno. Yeah, that um, you know, we always end up getting into AI or clot somehow anyway.

[00:39:47] Kalen: So I saw that Andre Carpathy posted that he used GPT Pro. He's like something I was stuck on whatever. Like I used GPT Pro, uh, or I had tried other GPT models.

[00:40:00] I used GPT Pro. He's like, it went off for 10 minutes and it came back and like fully solved the problem. And I'm like, that's crazy. Like I have to figure out like I gotta try this. And then I'm like, literally, how do people use GPT five PRO for code? I don't understand it. 'cause people say that and I'm like, are you copying and pasting a piece of code into the browser?

[00:40:26] David: I mean, I

[00:40:26] Kalen: definitely did that for a long while, but like how could you paste in a whole code base? Like do you just go file by file or do you just take one file and then it somehow can figure things out?

[00:40:39] David: I feel like I've been seeing a lot of stuff about cognition that people at OpenAI have been using.

[00:40:45] Maybe that's what the like is that what you get with the pro subscription? Maybe. I dunno.

[00:40:51] Kalen: I have no idea. I just, I don't understand how people, too many things. Too many. But yeah,

[00:40:57] David: I, there's like, there are a bunch of crazy like, isn't that what Cursor does is like some sort of indexing of the whole code base.

[00:41:05] But I, yeah.

[00:41:06] Kalen: Yeah. And yeah, I think Cursor does that, and that's the thing is I don't understand if people are using Cursor with GPT Pro

[00:41:14] David: or something else, they might just be doing like little, little code snippets or something

[00:41:20] Kalen: because I

[00:41:20] David: didn't Python. Yeah, that's,

[00:41:21] Kalen: yeah. Yeah. It's hard for me to imagine that Andre Carpathy who's like, I don't know, some AI genius, like is working on a project that doesn't have enough complexity that it would require a lot of files.

[00:41:35] David: Yeah, true.

[00:41:37] Kalen: Maybe he's writing some big gigantic Python script to like do some crazy algorithm or something. I don't know.

[00:41:43] David: I feel like he wrote GT two in like 300 lines of code, though, like that was one of his. YouTube videos.

[00:41:51] Kalen: That's insane. I, I don't even know all the stuff he's done. I just know he's like a complete genius.

[00:41:57] David: Yeah.

[00:41:57] Kalen: I saw this. I'm crossing off the Liam Shoutout forum support thing here, so I never circled back to the Liam Shoutout, which is like, Liam really spearheaded the forums, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't know who, who, like, who all is doing what. I'm sure it's a lot of people, but in my head I'm like, he's the one that like made the forum awesome by switching over to discourse.

[00:42:18] 'cause the forums were like horrible. I mean, and there wasn't a lot of staff focus on using them, I don't think. Yeah. Well there probably was. It just feels like there's just a lot more somehow now and it's like, it's usable. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:42:33] David: Maybe that's why, because it's Yeah. Segmented. Well, and

[00:42:36] Kalen: yeah, like I think that's a big part of why like, so just coordinating all that is like.

[00:42:42] Pretty sick.

[00:42:43] David: I bet it is. Uh, way better for everyone internally at Shopify versus that Slack too. Like that Slack was probably way too much.

[00:42:50] Kalen: Oh, yeah, dude, totally. Man. I, I actually forgot about that.

[00:42:55] David: Oh, I need to leave. I, I only get people who are like, Hey, I can be your developer for a while.

[00:43:05] Kalen: You're like, oh, yeah. Sometimes I just wanna reply back to people and just mess with 'em when they're trying to like, expand me. So you're like, oh yeah, tell me more, man. That sounds awesome. And then like,

[00:43:18] David: oh no. I would feel so bad. I just, I just didn't like, pretend I never saw it as my, I know.

[00:43:24] Kalen: I'd be like, like be like, yeah man, let's jump on a call and just block them.

[00:43:29] David: That'd be so funny. There are so many, like I get so many cold emails and I just never respond to any of them. I kind of feel bad about that too. Like they'll even reply to me like three times and I'm just waiting for their thing to stop recommending me because you know, they're all like running off with some CRM thing that still thinks I use Salesforce or whatever.

[00:43:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:43:54] Kalen: It's horrible. It's freaking horrible. Alright, here's my promotional spot with Shop Worker. I built out a little uh, NPM package my first. NPM package. I was like, I don't understand. How does this work? So you basically, you can use NPX, create dash shop worker, and then you know, the NPX makes it like download the package, install it like all in one go.

[00:44:20] Mm-hmm. And then run a command type of thing. So yeah. So obviously as Claude and it's like, well you just do like NPM publish and you have like JSON thing and like, I'm like, okay, cool. Like that makes sense. So then I'm like part of the universe of things that are in NPM. It like feels hell yeah, you're famous, magical, let's go check out the

[00:44:43] David: page.

[00:44:46] Kalen: Yeah, so that was cool. And then I picked up, I picked up a nice little gig, dude, this guy on Twitter, I don't know if you follow him. His name Dave Rek, R-E-K-U-C. He's like a operator for a brand called Bamboo Earth. And he is like, he's one of these guys like that, like posts merchante type stuff and gets like a billion likes type of thing.

[00:45:06] He's like a influencer in like the merchant side of things and um, I gotta follow him. Yeah, he's super cool. I gotta get those nuggets. You know what's funny is I remember in the back in the Magento days, I remember he started working for this agency and I can't remember which one it was, but it was like a smaller agency and I just remember seeing him around and, I don't know, maybe tweeting a little bit.

[00:45:28] And then fast forward to like, when I got back into Shopify, I, I saw that like. He was this huge influencer in the e-comm side of things.

[00:45:38] David: And now you're doing shop worker stuff with him?

[00:45:41] Kalen: Yeah. So he has a, an online quiz and basically all he wanted to do is like, is to, I don't know how many questions there are, there's like 15 questions and like after question number 10, he wanted to do a GPT prompt and pass in their answers to those questions and then get a personalized thing back in order to personalize the landing page.

[00:46:03] The reason I think this is a good idea is 'cause he's like a, he's like one of the smarter like brand operator dudes. So like, I assume if this was a feature that like existed, it would just be able to use it. But like, so it seems like, I'm like, I think everybody needs to do this. It's like, it just seems like a good idea.

[00:46:20] Yeah.

[00:46:20] David: Explain that again. Do you like it just auto creates a whole page based on some query?

[00:46:26] Kalen: Yeah. Like do you have a quiz on your site? No. Okay. So I think it's this thing that like a lot of brands do quizzes and it Yeah. You know, it like lets you segment your marketing. It's a whole thing. It's a whole tactic, right?

[00:46:40] Like, and so basically it's a GPT personalized landing page at the end of the quiz. So based on what, instead of just giving them, yeah. Instead of just giving them, here's your answers, like with some if then logic behind them. Mm-hmm. It's like based on the, what's your skin health, how much makeup do you use, blah, blah, blah.

[00:47:01] So then it can create a landing page that like recommends the products and it's like tailored to you. Cool. So I'm like, that has to work. It's gotta work, but test it baby. Yeah. But yeah, I just basically, he asked me about about it and I was like, oh yeah, can use shop work for that. Just spin a little endpoint and you know, and just, you know, hit, hit the API.

[00:47:23] Um, so when relatively smooth. And then, so the

[00:47:26] David: shop worker, API will respond with like some liquid to render or something?

[00:47:31] Kalen: No, actually it respond or ht, I guess. Uh, just JSON it just like, he had a format he wanted, like he wanted Oh, gotcha. A certain, you know, JSO format. Like, here are the three products and then, you know, that we recommend, and then here are the three reasons why these products cool.

[00:47:45] In a particular use case. You know what I mean? Sweet. Yeah. And then he, he like tweeted out that he was a happy customer. So I was like, kind of pumped. Kind of pumped. Heck yeah. It's like I've been waiting three years ever since I like got back, got into Shopify and started like seeing, he was a big wig.

[00:48:01] I've been waiting three years for like a shout out for him type of thing. You gonna frame that? That's

[00:48:07] David: cool.

[00:48:08] Kalen: Yeah, I, yeah, totally gonna frame it. Yeah. And then, okay. Declarative meta fields I took a crack at recently. Have you looked at those or heard about those? Okay, so declarative meta fields, dude. Or where as an app you can define your meta fields in your, in your config file for your app, and then it'll just like spin up the definitions in different environments.

[00:48:37] It'll just sync them up

[00:48:39] David: instead of having to like send API requests to create the meta field.

[00:48:43] Kalen: Yeah, yeah. Like all, like all that kind of stuff. Gotcha. It's funny, I went back into a project that I hadn't worked on for a while recently that had a bunch of ton of meta fields and I had to, you know, transferring 'em back and forth was always, was like a whole thing.

[00:49:00] So it was like, cool. This is exactly the purpose of declarative meta fields. I was like, this is awesome. I could finally get a chance to try this. So I started trying to use it. But it requires you to change the namespace of the meta fields because. Yeah, like I use custom namespace in mine. Yeah. And it has to be like an app namespace.

[00:49:20] So then I was like, that's man, that's good.

[00:49:21] David: Custom's like reserved for the merchant. I feel like. Yeah. Don't, don't be in my custom name space, bro.

[00:49:27] Kalen: Yeah, no, no, no. I, I, it was like a build that we did like, so we did the build's, like in a sense, it's okay that you made it. Yeah. But it would still be better if you didn't, you know, if you name spaced it better.

[00:49:40] So then I was like, well, it's gonna take too much refactoring to change all of the meta fields and stuff like that, which. Because there's, there's like hundreds of them.

[00:49:50] David: So then yeah, there's data in 'em probably, and

[00:49:52] Kalen: yeah, and there's data in 'em. So then you gotta migrate data. So then I just ended up not using it.

[00:49:59] Damn it. That was gonna be so cool.

[00:50:02] David: So the refactor would've been like, okay, I, I get to remove all of these API requests that my app did to create meta fields and instead they'll just exist because of the dec declare the declaration. So most of the work would just be transferring all the data, I guess.

[00:50:18] Kalen: Yeah, exactly. So like, I'll have to wait till I start something new. Yeah. On the next one. Yeah. Then I'll finally be able to like check them out because he was like dying to check them out.

[00:50:29] David: Is there anything else that, that comes with that besides like just being able to assume that they exist?

[00:50:35] Kalen: I think that's

[00:50:37] David: it.

[00:50:38] Um.

[00:50:39] Kalen: Gotcha. But I imagine if they ever released their data sync thing, they'd probably tie it in with that somehow too.

[00:50:44] David: It should be kind of sick. They don't need to. There's already one out there.

[00:50:48] Kalen: Yeah. There's a powerful one out there. Yeah, dude. Freaking, uh, well, I just had one more thing on my list. I, I actually got through the list today, dude.

[00:50:59] I feel like I've been machine gunning through my list.

[00:51:06] I saw somebody posted about the idea of like a personal read me. Where basically like, it's like a read me for people that are gonna work with you, you know, coworkers, stuff like that, or mm-hmm. It can be clients, whatever, to like, kind of mm-hmm. Understand kind of how you work, like, like what things you're good at, what things you're not good at.

[00:51:26] Like some personal things you're into to like, you know, be able to start up a conversation or whatever. Yeah. But also like work style, like for example, you know, like the one I saw like had details in it. Like, it wasn't just all like fluff. It was like, you know, I really like to ask a lot of questions in meetings because that's really how I think.

[00:51:45] Like I'm really passionate about this and that. So I'm most likely to like in a meeting if I'm focused on it to like have a negative reaction. Like it was actual, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I was like, that's such a good idea. I need to do that. 'cause I have a lot of, I'm kind of a handful to work with.

[00:52:05] I've realized, I've grown to realize that. I feel like it's easier for me back when I just had customers that I do email support for. I was so good, man. I was like, so always upbeat. I was always handling things quick. It was just like, they just really like, were happy that I was like a real founder, not some random su like outsource support, blah, blah, blah.

[00:52:32] But you know, you're not talking to the same person for eight hours a day for weeks. It's just like you get an email from them once every eight months and it takes you three minutes or 10 minutes or maybe an hour. So like there's not as much opportunity for like clashing as if you're working together closely.

[00:52:50] Like you're working on a project day in and day out and meeting

[00:52:55] David: things from each other.

[00:52:56] Kalen: Yeah, depending on things for them. Or they want you to do something and you feel like maybe it's, I don't think this is a good idea. So you don't, you're not as excited about it. And then that builds up over time and what, you know what I mean?

[00:53:09] So I don't know, like I might just be really bad at it or I just, I don't know. I got spoiled by getting used to this other type of commercial relationship that's just sort of like so much easier.

[00:53:21] David: Yeah, it could be that. But also maybe you just need a personal read. Me, this is like a, we, we do this or we, we need to do this again.

[00:53:28] But we worked with this with this company called At Your Core for a while and they helped us with like our culture stuff. And we, we have this, we have this exercise called Ways of Working and I just looked it up. It's like a, it is a thing and you like, am I a morning person or a night person? What motivates me?

[00:53:46] What is really boring to me? Right. And it's like, yeah, maybe that's helpful.

[00:53:51] Kalen: Yeah, I think, I think that could be good, but I also just, I don't know, I wonder if I'm just, I do suspect some people are better at just being around people more than me. Yeah. Probably. I dunno, because at a conference I'm also great.

[00:54:08] Like I love hanging out with people at a conference that haven't seen in a year and spending hours and hours with them. Like I have shorter

[00:54:17] David: timeframe.

[00:54:18] Kalen: Shorter timeframe. It's a different thing. Like I think if that same person I was next to in an office, you know, eight hours a day all year, it would be different.

[00:54:28] I mean, unless you become complete best friends. But otherwise, I don't know, man. I don't know. I just, I'm not a people person, but I am a, that's the weird thing is I am a people person in like lots of ways, but there's this limit at which I hard cut off and I become the least people person. It's not like a gradual decline the chart.

[00:54:53] It's like a step drop at, at a certain point. I just, I dunno. Are you like that? Are other people like that or,

[00:55:03] David: I mean, I go up and down just like by week. It never has anything to do with like what I'm working on. I feel like it's more just like. My brain kind of sucks sometimes, right? So I definitely have that, but I'm, I'm also like one of those people that just works well with other people I feel like.

[00:55:21] Just in general.

[00:55:24] Kalen: So as I'm, I don't think I

[00:55:26] David: have the same problem

[00:55:29] Kalen: as like, as I'm sitting here I'm like thinking like, yeah, David is a nice guy and like, I'm not like's, that's the problem, you know? Well, I mean,

[00:55:41] David: like, I always maybe not a problem, like everybody's different. Like for me, yeah, I get along with people, but I'm also like a people pleaser type person, which has its downsides, you know?

[00:55:51] Right, right.

[00:55:52] Kalen: Yeah. I guess it's just that one of the big five personality traits is disagreeableness, and I just, I just have like, it can be good, it, there are good things about it. You don't want to be 0% disagreeableness. That would be, you know, totally unhealthy. Everybody is somewhere on the spectrum and there's benefits and downsides like.

[00:56:12] You know, and if you're right down the middle, like yeah, that's probably, you're cool, you're right down the middle, but you, there's probably less that's unique about you. You know? Like

[00:56:21] David: Yeah. Or maybe fewer of your viewpoints will be shared, which like could be valuable, you know? Whereas yeah, you're unafraid,

[00:56:28] Kalen: I guess You just have to be like, just be who you are, you know?

[00:56:34] In a way, like Yep. Yeah. I guess if you can, if you can get away with it. I mean, you know, like,

[00:56:40] David: I mean, some people are just assholes all the time. Okay. That, that's true. Right. But I, I don't feel like you're an asshole all the time. Yeah. So, you know, it's fine. Right.

[00:56:55] Kalen: Just like a percentage of the time. Yeah,

[00:56:59] David: exactly. Gotta optimize that percent.

[00:57:01] Kalen: Gotta optimize the percentage. Yeah. It's funny. This is such a weird question, dude, but I realize, like, I haven't, like I don't ask you like, like how are you doing like with, with work or life or whatever happened this week? Like how, how, like how's it going?

[00:57:20] Like how are you feeling? Oh, thanks

[00:57:21] David: for asking, dude. Stop. This was a, this was a great week. Nice. Uh, had a new, had our content manager start this week, which is amazing for me. And part of the reason why I was able to look at metrics so much. I'm gonna be hanging out with my son this weekend playing video games, so I'm looking forward to that.

[00:57:38] Yes,

[00:57:39] Kalen: I wish I played video games with my kids, but then part of me feels like, well, eh, dude, don't, but then like 90% of me is like, yeah, that would be cool. But I just, I stopped playing. I just can't, I've tried to get made into like Mario Kart and it's just like, just, but

[00:57:55] David: yeah, maybe

[00:57:55] Kalen: as they get older, it depends.

[00:57:57] Yeah,

[00:57:58] David: yeah. As they get older, it'll be better. Plus like, I will say, playing with a young kid, it's somewhat excruciating to like watch them. Like just, just push the button. Like which button? It's that button that's the right button.

[00:58:13] Kalen: That's, yeah, that was my experience the last time on. But when you play with your son, oh, but your son is super young, so.

[00:58:23] Oh, he's six

[00:58:23] David: now. So he's actually pretty good. He's really good at games. Oh,

[00:58:28] Kalen: oh, okay. Nice.

[00:58:28] David: But he also gets bored really fast, so I'm kind of worried about attention span things. Probably gotta figure that like, no, you're playing this game until you beat it.

[00:58:40] Kalen: Right. But do you have a good time? Like you're gonna have a blast or is it kinda like, I'm like, oh, I'm on kid duty kind of thing.

[00:58:47] David: It's a little bit of both, like depending on the game we're playing. For some reason there's this game called Human fall flat, and the whole point of the game is that it sucks to control. And so that was annoying for a very long time. But now he's good at that game too. So like the only thing that happens is he'll be mad at me if I get too far ahead.

[00:59:06] So I just have to like wait. Nice. Like I, instead of like, so I have to get out of the mode that I'm usually in in games, which is like play them as efficiently as possible and instead just like be weird with my son in this game, which is all he really wants to do. That's cool.

[00:59:23] Kalen: Um, how about you, dude? Oh, how's your, how's your work been, bro?

[00:59:26] I, man, I have to say, dude, that the Charlie Kirk stuff is like, hit me man. It, like, uh, did it hit you? Like, did it make you emotional or was it just like, this is just a guy that you know?

[00:59:39] David: No, it's, I mean, like, he has a, a wife and kids. That's crazy. Like, regardless of how you feel about his opinions on things, I think it's, yeah, it's a wild situation.

[00:59:50] Kalen: I, I've seen, I see so many video clips and it's like, there's so many people that like, I don't know, they're like a comedian, like they've never met the guy before. Like, they're not even, they don't even agree with most things and, and they feel like. Emotionally shaken. It's not just, it feels like just how

[01:00:06] David: fragile people are.

[01:00:08] Kalen: It feels like it's hitting people and people are going to church. It's like, it feels like it's hitting people. So, and I feel that way personally because. Like, you know, I'd see his content. There were things I liked about him. There were things I was like, uh, I thought he was, you know, like uber conservative, whatever, like, you know, whatever.

[01:00:28] Yeah. I thought he was like, seemed relatively chill, whatever. And like now I'm just like, I feel so like, heartbroken about it. It's like, and then I see all, I see all these videos, and then the relationship he had is with his wife is so completely adorable. Like, there's a couple video clips of them and the way they're so sweet with each other, it's like, mm-hmm.

[01:00:52] Some people like, you know, they're together, but like, you don't feel that bad, you know, like whatever, you know, they're older, whatever. But the, I mean, it, you could tell that they were just super in love. Like it was, oh my God, it messes me up. But like, yeah. I mean, it's been crazy.

[01:01:10] David: Um, yeah, it, it's one of those things where like discourse in the country is.

[01:01:15] Kind of in a weird spot and it cannot go this way. Like that's the scary yeah. Thing. To me.

[01:01:22] Kalen: That's the other thing is I think people, I don't know. I think people are like, this has to stop. Like it's,

[01:01:27] David: yeah,

[01:01:28] Kalen: it feels like there, you know, people died, happens. But the specifics of this scenario, there's something about it, dude, that it feels like people are ready to pop.

[01:01:39] I don't know. You

[01:01:40] David: know, there's all different kinds of reactions to it and like some people are being like conspiracy things. I'm seeing on, yeah, I have to unfollow bunch people because I'm like annoyed.

[01:01:51] Kalen: Yeah. They're already starting to come out. The conspiracy are already

[01:01:54] David: coming out. The crossover between Bitcoin people and conspiracy people is like 98%.

[01:02:02] So I've done a lot of unfollowing. Oh yeah. I follow the whole, yeah. Just way too many takes I feel like on this. Like people just stop.

[01:02:14] Kalen: I followed the whole Bitcoin thing hardcore. Like I literally changed all my follows to Bitcoin and like I went to like a Bitcoin conference and stuff. Did you really

[01:02:25] David: like Yeah, in Dallas Did you buy a shirt with like, uh, all Bitcoin symbols, all it or something?

[01:02:31] Kalen: I don't think I ever did a shirt, dude. But they sell all kinds of cool shit and like, like, like they sell all sorts of cool wallets and like, dude, it's like, it was so cool, but you're never supposed to talk about anything. Yeah, I know. It's such wallets

[01:02:45] David: with

[01:02:46] Kalen: Yeah, it's like it's, if you're super into Bitcoin that the idea that you would ever talk non anonymously about it, like defeats the entire purpose, which like, I love talking about, like, I love sharing things that I'm thinking that I think are interesting.

[01:03:03] Yeah. I don't know. It's just like I'm so used to doing that. It's just like, I don't know, like it, it just short circuits me if I can't just have an idea and be like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Like do you feel like that like, like because I was talking about this with Dylan, like he's actually been using Twitter for I think longer than I have, like 15 years or something like that.

[01:03:25] Wow. And it's like I get this feeling of like a thought or whatever and I just need to like share it. It's like until I do, it's sort of like bouncing around in my head and then once I post it, it's kinda like, okay, I can move on and start thinking about other things. And he said he has something similar, like do you feel that or does it, is it not?

[01:03:45] I don't

[01:03:45] David: ever post, but I do. Yeah, because you don't post a lot. Maybe I should, because that does happen to me where like I'm thinking about something and I'll think about it for a long time. Got it. And I need to move on. Got it. Uh, so yeah, maybe you just solve that problem for yourself.

[01:04:01] Kalen: Yeah, I think it does.

[01:04:04] There is something there that. Could be useful. Like, I don't know. I don't know why, like Dylan said, it's like a little mini catharsis and I was like, yeah, yeah. It, it's hard to quite explain and I, I don't know. It's probably dysfunctional or something. I have no idea. But it's just, just how I'm,

[01:04:22] David: I do tend to tell my wife about random things I'm excited about, so she gets to.

[01:04:26] She gets to be my outlet sometimes, but she has like no idea what I'm like. That's great, honey. Nice.

[01:04:35] Kalen: Yeah. My wife, I stopped telling her about like things I was interested in because I was just like, she's so sick of me talking like, it is so stupid. I, and then I just stopped talking to her about like stuff, and then like recently I've been like talking to her more about some things and she's like starting to kind of listen more.

[01:04:56] It's like kind of cool, oh, I'm like, oh, this is, this is what it's like to have a healthy relationship, so not have to dysfunctionally only be able to share things on the internet.

[01:05:10] I spent 20 years doing it, doing the opposite.

[01:05:13] David: I appreciate your streams of thought on the internet. Nice.

[01:05:17] Kalen: How long have you been married?

[01:05:19] David: 14 years.

[01:05:20] Kalen: Nice dude.

[01:05:21] David: Yeah. Nice man. Good times. We were together for like four years before that. It's been a while. Oh,

[01:05:27] Kalen: that's crazy, bro. I just, just

[01:05:30] David: wait, what about, how long have you been there?

[01:05:33] Kalen: I just looked at the screen and it says your recording has stopped.

[01:05:38] David: No shit.

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