Let Sidekick Cook | talkingshop.dev

[00:00:00] Dude, the problem is my headphones. I have this issue where my computer always steals the headphones and it's a gigantic issue and it stole the, so I gave up on it because of that. I dunno, I had a peripheral issue yesterday too, my like, okay, so you know, I have. Millions of tabs and yeah, in, in order to live that life, you have a country mile worth.

[00:00:21] I must be able. I do. In order to survive in that environment of my own creation, I need to have a mouse that has buttons on the side that lets me switch between tabs. Okay? So if I cannot switch between tabs with my mouse. It severely interrupts my flow. You're so weird. It's just close the tabs, dude, you don't, you don't have the tabs changer on your mouse.

[00:00:48] This is like, no, brother. Come on now.

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[00:01:37] Kalen Jordan: Dude, it's a friday. It is absolute fucking Friday right now. Dude.

[00:01:44] David: How leaned back are you in your chair right now?

[00:01:47] Kalen Jordan: brother. I'm a solid, I'm at like a solid 30%,

[00:01:50] David: 30%

[00:01:51] Kalen Jordan: 60% Back 30 per 30% up 60% back. Yeah.

[00:01:57] David: up from zero. Okay.

[00:01:59] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:59] David: in a similar

[00:02:01] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. No, you, you have a, you have a pretty serious lean too.

[00:02:07] David: You

[00:02:07] Kalen Jordan: EV every once in a while the background noise gets better and then, and then it sneaks back in. You'll, you, you'll do, I'll be listening.

[00:02:18] You never listen to the episodes, right?

[00:02:20] David: Um, no, I

[00:02:24] Kalen Jordan: I listen all.

[00:02:25] David: the, uh, I listened to the little snippets you put on Twitter.

[00:02:28] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah, no, 'cause I'll listen to him and then, uh, you know, anyways, it's funny because literally Phil used to give me shit the exact same shit, and I like, I was like, bro, like I remember literally for like. Like a couple years he'd be telling me it, and I'm thinking in the back of my head, dude, just relax.

[00:02:45] Why are you being such a fucking, you know, why, why? We're talking, we're recording. It doesn't matter. And it like, literally like, I don't know how many years later, I was like, yeah, you know, you gotta gotta keep it on point.

[00:02:57] David: Is it my chair now?

[00:02:59] Kalen Jordan: So sometimes the chair, sometimes it's a keyboard, you know, sometimes it's like,

[00:03:03] David: sheesh. I.

[00:03:04] Kalen Jordan: I don't know, but we'll figure, we'll get there, we'll figure it out.

[00:03:07] We're only.

[00:03:07] David: we will see about

[00:03:08] Kalen Jordan: We're only 19 episodes in, dude. We've got, we've got many. We've got at least a couple thousand episodes in ahead of us. So

[00:03:16] David: There we

[00:03:16] Kalen Jordan: got time. We got time to improve.

[00:03:18] David: some, uh, WD 40 or something and spray it all in my chair. I don't know.

[00:03:23] Kalen Jordan: Dude, how wild would that be if we ended up doing like 2000 episodes of this stupid podcast?

[00:03:30] David: Well

[00:03:31] Kalen Jordan: We're like, we're like 60.

[00:03:33] David: the sponsorships.

[00:03:34] Kalen Jordan: We're like 65 and we're still doing this dude.

[00:03:40] David: Hold on. I'm increasing production value right now.

[00:03:44] Kalen Jordan: We're like 65 and we're like talking to each other. Yeah. Remember, remember 18 years ago when they had this API and blah blah?

[00:03:54] David: chairs still squeaked.

[00:03:56] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Like, I literally think about this though of like have you seen, they use the phrase a hundred year company to refer to Shopify.

[00:04:04] David: Oh yeah.

[00:04:05] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, I'm so all in on the Kool-Aid. Like I believe that they like, you know what I mean? Like they believe that. So I'll think about that. I'm like, dude, like if, you know, I mean, it continues and then I continue with it. It could be, it could be like 30 years from now I'm still doing it and then like my kids could have their own whole career in it.

[00:04:24] Like, it's kind of weird to think about it that way.

[00:04:27] David: dude, that is cool. And you become the sage. I was there in year 15 of Shopify

[00:04:34] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:04:35] David: whatever it is

[00:04:36] Kalen Jordan: I know. 'cause I feel like such a newbie now. It's like people will be talking about stuff that happened 10 years ago or eight years ago, or five years ago. I'm like, dude, I'm literally a year and a half into this shit,

[00:04:48] David: It's

[00:04:48] Kalen Jordan: but.

[00:04:48] David: though, right? It is.

[00:04:50] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, dude, do you know who Rick Rubin is?

[00:04:54] David: Oh, that's the guy who like makes music. He's like

[00:04:56] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:04:57] David: wizard guy. I.

[00:04:58] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. There's like the meme, there's like memes about him. He has like the long gray beard and stuff like that.

[00:05:03] David: Yeah, the Taste Master.

[00:05:05] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, he has his own podcast now and he had Toby on it. Yeah, I'd heard Rick Rubin on probably like a couple podcasts over the last, I don't, a year or two.

[00:05:12] Like Joe Rogan or Lex Fried. I don't, I don't remember. Um,

[00:05:16] David: like the guest, but

[00:05:18] Kalen Jordan: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And then I was like, I remember thinking like it was like a cool podcast and, and it's just like, it's crazy how his whole thing is like, you know, he's like, I don't have any musical skill. You know, and he's like, there's like a viral video of it where he's, you know, he's like, all I can do is like, be honest with my, , feelings and taste.

[00:05:41] And that's like literally all he does. But, so like, I don't know all the albums he's produced, but I think like, you know, his reputation is just like, yeah. And so.

[00:05:51] David: uh, he did the, , of a down album. Like

[00:05:55] Kalen Jordan: Oh, no way. That's cool.

[00:05:57] David: Like a lot of stuff you wouldn't like, it's not just, like

[00:05:59] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:06:00] David: music.

[00:06:01] Kalen Jordan: yeah. Like you could tell, I mean, you could just tell he has like eclectic taste and you know, you could just tell he's like a unique dude. And so, I saw, Toby posted it and I listened to it, and it was cool, man. Like, he asked him a bunch of, he, you know, he asked him like, how is your company structure different from other companies or like, he does it.

[00:06:20] It's funny because like, I think of how insanely like highly technical Toby is and how like there's no way I could even, probably understand him on that level. But then he's talking to somebody who's like the least technical person in the world. And, they have like a cool conversation and you know, he just like comes up with different

[00:06:39] David: org structure.

[00:06:40] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. He would jump all over the place, you know, and I kept waiting to hear him, like kind of ask like, a dumb question. Like in the sense of they're trying to pretend they understand some of the tech and they, you know what I mean? And he just didn't do that. Like he, he just stuck to like whatever.

[00:06:55] Type stuff happened to like be interesting to him related and then like Toby's. 'cause I've heard Toby on a few, I guess like clips or maybe a couple interviews and he seemed like more like he was having fun with the interview type of thing versus just, but you being totally serious. So it was cool.

[00:07:16] David: That

[00:07:16] Kalen Jordan: It was

[00:07:17] David: I'm gonna have to check that out. Like, I, I'm not a podcast person. I don't listen to podcasts, but that one, I watched like a YouTube documentary about. Rick Rubin a long time ago, and I, I thought he was super interesting. Now

[00:07:29] Kalen Jordan: Nice.

[00:07:30] David: that'll be cool.

[00:07:31] Kalen Jordan: Nice. Yeah, no, it was, it was fun.

[00:07:34] David: in a trailer

[00:07:35] Kalen Jordan: Does he?

[00:07:35] David: in, yeah.

[00:07:37] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, dude. Just fucking living his life, you know? Dude, so additions. I,

[00:07:43] David: We did that.

[00:07:44] Kalen Jordan: that was fun.

[00:07:46] David: Like

[00:07:46] Kalen Jordan: That was God.

[00:07:48] David: A month ago.

[00:07:49] Kalen Jordan: A long time ago. Yeah, it was really cool seeing you in person. Hadn't seen you for quite a while. You're a whole, you're a whole vibe. And um, yeah,

[00:08:00] David: No,

[00:08:00] Kalen Jordan: long hair, the beard.

[00:08:02] David: have long hair. That's

[00:08:03] Kalen Jordan: The big smile. Dude, the funniest thing to me was when you came up and, you know, by this point I think I saw you, I don't know, second or third day I was there, you know, and, , you've been talking to a bunch of people and then you're like, oh, how's it going? Da da. And then you're, you're like, Hey, so have you talked to anyone that's like a listener?

[00:08:23] And I was dying on the inside 'cause I was like. Like you're the type of person that you're always gonna like listen and pay attention to what the other person is saying, but like, the type of conference person is like 90% of the time geared the other way.

[00:08:38] And so that just cracked me up.

[00:08:41] David: What do you mean geared the other way?

[00:08:42] Kalen Jordan: Like, they're just more like gonna talk about themselves, you know, not really listen, , they're just gonna like,

[00:08:48] David: Oh, gotcha.

[00:08:48] Kalen Jordan: you know what I mean?

[00:08:50] David: Yeah, I'm, I'm not a sales

[00:08:53] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:08:53] David: was really fun though, like going to actually, we did talk to a listener, didn't we? For a little bit. That was kind of cool to

[00:09:00] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. We had some cool conversations.

[00:09:03] David: Yeah. But what was really fun for me was to like, go up to the booths, , that the, the Shopify PMs were working at, and like

[00:09:10] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:09:11] David: too.

[00:09:11] It was really cool

[00:09:12] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:09:13] David: talk to them about my problems

[00:09:15] Kalen Jordan: Right, right, right.

[00:09:18] David: I would love to understand and like, , it's great to understand kind of how they think about

[00:09:22] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:09:24] David: the question and.

[00:09:25] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:09:26] David: all totally made sense. It was also really fun to like ask a weird question like, , what do you think about a arrays and liquid?

[00:09:33] And like,

[00:09:34] Kalen Jordan: Right, right, right.

[00:09:35] David: I had to be passed around to like five different people to see who knew the most about

[00:09:41] Kalen Jordan: That's awesome.

[00:09:43] David: So

[00:09:43] Kalen Jordan: That's so cool.

[00:09:44] David: that I met a few people and that was, that was pretty fun.

[00:09:47] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, that's, cool. I had a conversation with one dude about the app store and, , I left with the same impression of just like, dude, like they're really thinking carefully about things like, can be so easy, like with the review purge, for example, to be like,

[00:10:03] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:03] Kalen Jordan: about Shopify.

[00:10:04] Like, oh, you know, they just deleted a bunch of reviews without even thinking about it, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:10:08] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:09] Kalen Jordan: like, they put more thought into it than I did, you know what I mean? And I think they had a really good approach. And after I talked to the guy that was what I like, came away with.

[00:10:19] David: Yeah. I feel like you have to remember as someone who would go to a Shopify developer conference is our problems are not , the biggest pro, like wants to be there for people who are starting out e-commerce. I.

[00:10:34] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:10:35] David: If they put in so much flexibility that we can do whatever we want or all of our complaints are resolved, then someone who knows nothing about liquid, like it'll make it way harder for them to

[00:10:45] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:10:46] David: is going on.

[00:10:47] Kalen Jordan: right, right.

[00:10:48] David: I totally empathize with that. Like need to make it powerful enough for, developer people, but also like let people do, get stuff done

[00:10:59] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:10:59] David: a bunch of help needed. I.

[00:11:01] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah. And people always say like, people in our world always say like, oh, they only care about the enterprise merchants. They don't care about the little guys anymore. But,

[00:11:10] David: it's like flipped for Shopify.

[00:11:12] Kalen Jordan: I don't know. Yeah, I think that, like Toby always talks about it and it's like, I believe it when he talks about it. Like he really is into that mission of empowering the entrepreneur and stuff like that.

[00:11:22] So yeah, I think so too. I think there's definitely a, an emphasis, ,

[00:11:27] David: Yeah,

[00:11:27] Kalen Jordan: yeah, dude there. Yeah, dude.

[00:11:30] David: hope to go again like it was. Toronto's a beautiful city also. I got to like, walk around for a

[00:11:35] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:11:35] David: and

[00:11:35] Kalen Jordan: it's nice, huh?

[00:11:37] David: My daughter told me about this candy that's only in Canada. And so, at the end of one of the nights, I just walked around to a bunch of different gas stations to find this candy and the like,

[00:11:48] Kalen Jordan: It

[00:11:48] David: was like a. Maybe that was like Thursday night, but people are out in that city like

[00:11:54] Kalen Jordan: right?

[00:11:54] David: out in the

[00:11:55] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah. Just out and about.

[00:11:57] David: Super cool. Yeah.

[00:11:58] Kalen Jordan: yeah. I dunno, it, it just felt like it was like clean, safe. Of course, everybody I talked to who was from there mentioned something about crime increasing or something. But that was my feeling is like, oh, it feels like it's safe here.

[00:12:09] David: from the us

[00:12:11] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:12:11] David: we, we beat everyone on the crime rates, I think.

[00:12:13] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, we, we, we know how to juice a crime rate out here.

[00:12:17] David: know how to do that.

[00:12:21] Kalen Jordan: Say what you will about us, but we can kick us the crime rate sky high. Yeah. Yeah, no, but then also I felt like, we didn't hang out quite as much as I wanted to, you know? 'cause we had like a couple chats, but I, I felt like I was gonna get in, you know, like a little more of a solid, full on like, grab a beer together, hang sesh, but

[00:12:43] David: Yeah,

[00:12:44] Kalen Jordan: next time.

[00:12:44] David: And

[00:12:45] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:12:45] David: next time, next time I'll belong to the developer, whatever that thing is called. I keep saying I'm gonna join and then I forget,

[00:12:51] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah, yeah. The um.

[00:12:53] David: Alliance

[00:12:54] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:54] David: one

[00:12:55] Kalen Jordan: There's a new one.

[00:12:56] David: Operators.

[00:12:57] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:12:58] David: I also don't really fit in that one though,

[00:13:02] Kalen Jordan: Right. You're like, I just want to be in a cool group, guys. Like I'm not so sure about the thing. I just want to be in a cool group.

[00:13:10] David: yeah, just let me hang out with you.

[00:13:12] Kalen Jordan: Let me hang. You guys are cool. I like your vibe.

[00:13:16] David: Met a couple, , a couple people I hadn't met, like, besides on Twitter and . We hung out and we went and got dinner at a, like, a really nice place. You know, it's nice when you pull up in the Uber and like they got some little like, ambiance fires going outside,

[00:13:31] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:13:31] David: a tube.

[00:13:33] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:13:33] David: So that was fun.

[00:13:34] Kalen Jordan: That's when you know you got, you picked the right spot. I,

[00:13:37] David: yeah, if you want to spend some money, I

[00:13:39] Kalen Jordan: yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:40] David: but it was good.

[00:13:41] Kalen Jordan: Nice. And dude, by the way, I have to say like Taylor dude with this whole, Shopify Developer Alliance. Like, it's funny, I remember in the beginning when I first saw it, like, 'cause I had a, I had started a Slack community group in the past and stuff, and I was like, all right, here goes another, another one of these, you know, slack community, you know, whatever.

[00:13:59] But he is like, he's really, really doing a good job with it. Like personally, I don't go into Slack too much. There's like one rant channel. I like to go in every once in a while, but like, I just, slack distracts me too much. So it's usually closed, but he's like constantly posting like new.

[00:14:16] Benefits and a partnership here, partnership there. And then when I saw how organized he was at additions with having everybody together and, pick doing pictures. And then when I heard he got the award, he got the community award, I was like, yeah, dude, this like, he's like, seriously good at like the whole community building thing.

[00:14:39] David: Totally. You can tell he like, and kudos for, for getting the award. He like, I'm not in the developer alliance, so I'm not in the Slack, but I still see Taylor everywhere, like

[00:14:48] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:14:49] David: replying to people,

[00:14:50] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:14:51] David: being part of the conversation.

[00:14:52] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. And he like, promotes other people a lot, you know, like he'll re retweet, stuff that people are doing. And sometimes people do that, and then you meet them in person or, you know, and it's kind of like a, just a strategy for them. Kind of a thing.

[00:15:08] David: Yeah,

[00:15:09] Kalen Jordan: and with him, it's totally not like, the community thing is a good fit for his actual personality. And he just like, he really like likes doing that type of stuff.

[00:15:19] David: it.

[00:15:19] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. He cares like, yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:21] David: I love like community is always something feels like it makes a strong, I. , obviously like connection to the technology and I always felt like, know, Magento had a strong community and with Shopify jumping in it was like immediately cool. Everyone's

[00:15:36] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:15:37] David: and there's people who really care and they like

[00:15:40] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:15:40] David: and it's super important

[00:15:42] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:15:43] David: keep the conversation out in the public and as a consequence, you know, like Shopify listens and so it's.

[00:15:50] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:15:51] David: super appreciated and I've never like been someone who really contributes to the community, but I always that It's a thing.

[00:16:00] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, Yeah, dude. Like it, yeah, it is a huge part. Like, I, I can't even imagine just like doing work and having no, like, connection to the people, that are doing similar type of work. Like it's, you know, it's kind of a huge thing, but, um.

[00:16:17] David: It definitely is, and just like getting on calls with people too is, is a lot of fun. Like what we're doing now. And

[00:16:22] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:16:23] David: I've had, you know, reference calls with, , other brands about, like vendors I'm looking at and it's

[00:16:28] Kalen Jordan: yeah,

[00:16:29] David: like, talk to them and

[00:16:30] Kalen Jordan: yeah,

[00:16:31] David: that outlet always there

[00:16:32] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:16:33] David: Shopify in general is really

[00:16:34] Kalen Jordan: I was, I was talking to my friend Jake, like we were DMing or something, and then, , something about the community and he's like, dude, this is my home. And like that phrase that he used, like it's stuck in my head. Like that's how he described, like the comm, you know, the community. And, I, yeah, it just really, it was like striking.

[00:16:54] Um,

[00:16:54] David: very human thing to, to

[00:16:56] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:16:57] David: this kind of thing.

[00:16:59] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I saw this sidekick prompt that this dude posted Char, what was his name? Harry Mullen or something like that. And, it was a way to check if you're ready for a membership program. Yeah. And so it had, I didn't, I mean, it basically was like, what are my retention numbers?

[00:17:19] What are my, whatever? And then like, I just saw him scrolling through in the screenshot video. I just saw him scrolling through all the stuff that Sidekick came back with, like charts and like, and then he, said like , see below in the tweet for the prompt or whatever.

[00:17:35] I didn't look at the prompt, but. Like, that's so powerful, dude. Like if it's actually gives you the data you need, like that's wild,

[00:17:44] David: Oh yeah,

[00:17:45] Kalen Jordan: you know?

[00:17:46] David: just started picking that up a bit more after the conference. I started like actually talking with Sidekick and.

[00:17:51] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:17:52] David: Sometimes what I want is not something that's available

[00:17:56] Kalen Jordan: I,

[00:17:56] David: like the existing analytics engine,

[00:17:59] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:17:59] David: anyway and then be like, oh, that's not what you wanted.

[00:18:03] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:18:03] David: told people that like in in the company, that like, Hey, this thing actually works for some questions.

[00:18:09] And now like people on the retail team are using sidekick,

[00:18:13] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:18:14] David: is just in there like, oh, I've got a

[00:18:16] Kalen Jordan: It's crazy.

[00:18:16] David: Just ask this dude. And they all have, one thing I noticed today is they all have different names for it. And when you open it up, nowhere in the window does it say its name is Sidekick.

[00:18:28] Kalen Jordan: That's hilarious.

[00:18:29] David: kind of curious, like, is that intentional? ,

[00:18:32] Kalen Jordan: Doubt it.

[00:18:33] David: are we supposed to just like not be. I'm looking at the little guy right now and he blinks when

[00:18:38] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:18:39] David: the window is open. So like

[00:18:40] Kalen Jordan: right,

[00:18:40] David: level of, mascot ishness to it,

[00:18:44] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:18:45] David: knows what its name is, so,

[00:18:46] Kalen Jordan: That's So people at your company just call it different things, like they call it the chat thing or,

[00:18:50] David: yeah, and I'm

[00:18:51] Kalen Jordan: that's so funny.

[00:18:53] David: it's called sidekick.

[00:18:54] Kalen Jordan: Ha

[00:18:55] David: Like, so

[00:18:55] Kalen Jordan: It has a whole name. It's a whole big deal on Twitter.

[00:18:58] David: Some

[00:18:59] Kalen Jordan: like,

[00:18:59] David: it like the little guy, like the, the

[00:19:01] Kalen Jordan: that's so funny. It's funny how the little things like, I bet you they like, I bet you the amount of time they spent like designing that is like absurd.

[00:19:10] And then like just a little thing like that, you know, that like completely overlook.

[00:19:15] David: or was it not? Who

[00:19:16] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:19:17] David: it now,

[00:19:19] Kalen Jordan: That's so funny, dude.

[00:19:21] David: It's definitely broken through in terms of like people, like non-technical people coming in and being able to do work with it is actually happening.

[00:19:29] Kalen Jordan: Dude, it, that's crazy you mentioned that. 'cause , I didn't really know who many people are using it. Like I've used it like two times, you know, and then I was like, ah, I bet the usage is just spiking on that like, uh, globally.

[00:19:42] David: can see what you're looking at and, and use that as part of its context,

[00:19:47] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:19:48] David: until I was like asking a question and it was like, well, you're looking at a report that's kind of like that right now.

[00:19:53] Kalen Jordan: right,

[00:19:54] David: oh, okay.

[00:19:54] Kalen Jordan: right. Yeah. \ . It's funny because part of me is like, okay, they're gonna add that to flow. They, you know, and this is not based on any information I've received 'cause I haven't received any information on it. But like they, no, like I haven't, but like, I mean it just makes sense that, that has to be coming for flow.

[00:20:12] I mean, they have to be working on that and which is cool, like when it comes out it's gonna be awesome, but

[00:20:18] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:18] Kalen Jordan: if they didn't have this check something, then we'd be able to do that ourselves. And it's like, I like, you could make the argument that, look, it doesn't matter. 'cause once it's baked into sidekick, that's all that's gonna matter.

[00:20:32] But with AI especially, there's kind of this like precedent for sometimes the third party just works better. Who knows why. Like they just, they, I, maybe they hustle more at like tweaking it or, I don't know what the answer is, but like cursor beating, copilot and stuff like that. So, I mean, it would be cool if third parties had access to do that.

[00:20:49] 'cause I would. Like to do that?

[00:20:53] David: Is there an A PII guess not like an API to create flows. That's the

[00:20:57] Kalen Jordan: Nah, no, no. There's an import export format. Like, like if you export it, it's exports to JSON file. And then you can

[00:21:04] David: have been created

[00:21:05] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:21:06] David: the flow. Gotcha.

[00:21:07] Kalen Jordan: yeah. They, they use it, they sign it with a secret or something like that. So it's impossible to, uh, generate the json to import yourself. , but anyways, like.

[00:21:16] David: a post about that in the dev forms though. Like did you, did you

[00:21:20] Kalen Jordan: I think it was me. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably me. And I think Paul did mention that. He's like maybe trying to work on that.

[00:21:27] David: So

[00:21:27] Kalen Jordan: so yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, it's not like they're like afraid of third parties or something like that. I'm just saying like, you know, it's just one of those things that.

[00:21:35] David: thing to allow like arbitrary

[00:21:38] Kalen Jordan: Right. Yeah.

[00:21:39] David: from within the

[00:21:41] Kalen Jordan: right, right. Yeah, I, yeah, yeah. No, I can totally understand. Like being in a meeting and being like, yeah, let's disable that. But, um, selfishly I want to exist.

[00:21:52] David: Yeah.

[00:21:53] Kalen Jordan: So when I heard the interview with Toby and he mentioned Rails and I think at one point he said something like to the effect of like, I did an e-commerce platform with a better language.

[00:22:04] And that's like, why it won. I don't know if that was the exact, but he like attributed a lot to Ruby. in That context. And I've always heard a lot of people say that. Like Rails is awesome, you know? And it's like I'm building more, I'm like, I'm like, the thing I'm working on right now is a bunch of backend, like it probably could mostly be in Rails.

[00:22:22] I know a lot of Shopify app developers use Rails. So I was like, I was like thinking, I wonder if I should learn it, then on the other hand, it's like. CloudFlare workers, for example, doesn't support Ruby. Like a lot of the cooler, newer type stuff doesn't support it, you know? Or even Shopify functions like JavaScript and Rust.

[00:22:41] So then I'm kind of like, I don't know, maybe it's not worth it.

[00:22:45] David: I saw something on Twitter the other day that made a lot of sense to me, and it, it was something like and maybe it was actually in the context of Shopify being written in Ruby, I.

[00:22:53] Kalen Jordan: Hmm.

[00:22:54] David: it was like, if you're complaining about speed and your answer is the language, then you don't understand much about

[00:23:02] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:23:02] David: the bigger problem is I. The architecture versus like the on the machine code that's running. And at, at least in like bigger applications, you need

[00:23:14] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:15] David: come in and understand the code

[00:23:17] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:23:17] David: not shoot themselves in the foot. And if you structure things in, in a certain way,

[00:23:22] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:23:22] David: have

[00:23:23] Kalen Jordan: I.

[00:23:23] David: billion dollar company like Shopify.

[00:23:25] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:23:25] David: servicing like a ton of the globes traffic

[00:23:29] Kalen Jordan: right,

[00:23:29] David: in Ruby, which is not like a language that is known for speed.

[00:23:33] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:23:33] David: and they're probably not going to rewrite things in a completely different language just because of speed. Like

[00:23:39] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:23:39] David: it's fast,

[00:23:40] Kalen Jordan: totally.

[00:23:40] David: it works.

[00:23:42] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, because like there's just a bunch of like database stuff I'm doing and I'm like, man, if I was using like a more mature package, it would have a lot of this stuff built into it. It would, you know, I don't know, but I'm probably not gonna do that unless probably, unless I had to, I wouldn't do it.

[00:23:59] David: Like if you want to get a job at Shopify, you probably have to know Ruby.

[00:24:03] Kalen Jordan: I think, well, I think I, I believe you don't have to, but it probably would make a lot more sense to like. I don't think harsh, deep knew Ruby. I think he mentioned that he was learn, uh,

[00:24:14] David: right?

[00:24:14] Kalen Jordan: learning it. Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:16] David: relevant to some degree.

[00:24:17] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah, no, definitely. If you, if you worked there, yeah, it'd be good to know probably.

[00:24:21] but Dude, it's been so long, like I was just thinking about when's the last time I learned a language? just Because I wanted to learn it. It is probably been like 20 years.

[00:24:32] David: Yeah, because JavaScript's not going away it's

[00:24:35] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:24:35] David: it's just becoming more prevalent.

[00:24:37] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:24:38] David: I feel like if I had to learn a language these days, it'd be a lot easier, like way

[00:24:43] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah,

[00:24:45] David: Like

[00:24:45] Kalen Jordan: yeah. Big time.

[00:24:46] David: an entire book and like trying to write code while I'm reading it or like

[00:24:49] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:52] David: ask this thing that's always available a question.

[00:24:55] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, no, I would definitely learn. That's, that's the thing is I'm learning things faster, like, you know, with AI and stuff like that. it Does make me more lazy in like the little syntax issues. Like there's stuff that I. Probably could have wrote quickly without thinking about it, that now, like I have to think about it for a second.

[00:25:13] So I just prompt it. But I, those are ultimately lower level skills, so it's like at the higher end, end of the stack, it's like I'm learning stuff,

[00:25:24] David: yeah. You know what, like makes me feel lazy based on some things that I've, I've read. Like there's this thing that Toby said about context engineering. Like it, it's not prompt engineering, it's context engineering.

[00:25:36] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:36] David: to be able to lay the. The framework for the LLM , to do what you actually want.

[00:25:43] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:44] David: so now, like I feel like I'm being a lazy person when it takes me like three or four tries to get to the thing that I actually want when I'm prompting.

[00:25:53] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:53] David: should just start over and like figure out a different way to

[00:25:57] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] David: put more time into the initial prompt or something and, and like try and structure my brain that way to not be lazy with a simple prompt to start.

[00:26:06] Kalen Jordan: Right. Right, right, right, right. and I, I mean, yeah, I think prompting is going to is, is like, I think in some ways it's gonna be like an important skill, but I think less so of like hacks to do prompts and more like. Thinking through the problem at the right level of detail, like, you know what I mean?

[00:26:27] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:27] Kalen Jordan: reasoning about it at the correct level. I think doing those types of prompts well is gonna be more and more valuable.

[00:26:36] David: Yeah. And, I totally agree. And being able to, , prompt for like, chains of things to happen.

[00:26:43] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:43] David: When you're working with cloud code or something and you give it, like you say, okay, you can go ahead and query the database. You can go ahead and read the logs,

[00:26:52] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:53] David: Thinking about those kinds of things to help it un

[00:26:56] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:56] David: it get to the thing that it needs to be is also gonna

[00:26:58] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:26:59] David: important.

[00:27:00] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Okay, so Charlie, , blank Lobb, who. By the way, changed his Twitter picture, which was iconic. And his, uh, yeah. And I think his name used to be Blank Law, but it's Eunice, his handle's still blank law. But his name is Eunice and he has a regular, a regular boring picture.

[00:27:22] David: Whenever I hear Charlie, I think about that, that new grounds, or maybe it was YouTube, where the unicorns are like walking around and saying, Charlie, over and over again, do you know that one?

[00:27:33] Kalen Jordan: what? No.

[00:27:34] David: Just search Charlie Unicorns after this

[00:27:36] Kalen Jordan: Okay.

[00:27:37] David: know what I'm talking about.

[00:27:38] Kalen Jordan: That's wild.

[00:27:39] David: it'll be in your head too.

[00:27:41] Kalen Jordan: That's wild. Don't think about the unicorns. , but so Charlie is like an a, like a, like a, I don't know if it's a SaaS app or an app or like a, just some code he's can deploy for people. But, he's been posting about like point of sale a lot for the past. I don't know, for a while. I'm like, what is, what the hell is he building?

[00:27:59] And so it's like a cool, thing. It has like omnichannel support, so like people that you know, do stuff online and also point of sale. has like, I dunno, integrations and features. You can if you look through his website, like the use cases it give are, are like really interesting. It'll be like sell inventory from, the location that has the most inventory because you want to balance out inventory levels between locations.

[00:28:26] It's like finesse type stuff. And there's like a location routing thing, or location validation like that, that you were talking about. I think that was the type of thing you were, you always talk about that there needs to be like order fulfillment constraints. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it has some cool use cases and I'm sure he is gonna absolutely crush it.

[00:28:46] David: I bet this is a beautiful site. I, I also, like, I went to it and then I looked for a listing on the app store, so maybe it is a, , something that he kind of like, has a strong connection with people who are installing it right now.

[00:28:59] Kalen Jordan: Hmm.

[00:29:00] David: Probably because there's some like onboarding

[00:29:03] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:29:04] David: stuff that has to happen.

[00:29:05] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

[00:29:06] David: I'm super excited about like the, this feels like, uh, the way that things are going with,

[00:29:11] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:29:11] David: like

[00:29:12] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:29:12] David: has this, e-commerce Legos system and also has kind of like these openings where things can come in and fill in the, the gaps. Like

[00:29:23] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:29:24] David: like, good Day does like some of the PO tracking and Charlie does some of this like more complicated

[00:29:30] Kalen Jordan: right,

[00:29:31] David: stuff and omnichannel

[00:29:33] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:29:33] David: Fun. It's like, uh, this ecosystem's just getting more built out.

[00:29:37] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. It's funny, I like, my new thing now is like when somebody has like success with like, SaaS, you know, like I talked to somebody at Additions who had gone full time with their app after working on it for three years or something like that. And so my thing is like, oh, that's like, congratulations also I fucking hate you because like I'm, I'm like jealous.

[00:29:58] You know what I mean? Yeah, but it's like genuinely. That's awesome. Congratulations. And then genuinely, I'm like, fuck. So I,

[00:30:06] David: I

[00:30:06] Kalen Jordan: I give the official congratulations and I fucking hate you , to Charlie. 'cause it looks, it looks awesome.

[00:30:13] David: It does look pretty cool. Yeah. They like, they, he took his experience working with merchants and what problems they had and like threw it all into

[00:30:20] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:30:21] David: in one kind of thing, which

[00:30:23] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, like you could tell it came from like actual, like work with like real merchants because you know, when, if somebody launches a website with like features like that and it's kind of like not as mature, like they'll have features that kind of sound cool, you know what I mean? But they'll be a little too generic.

[00:30:42] It won't sound like some, you know, some like realistic concern for like a serious merchant. You know what I mean?

[00:30:49] David: Yeah, but these are like, all these use cases that come up right away are like actual things.

[00:30:55] Kalen Jordan: they look solid,

[00:30:56] David: I wonder how often

[00:30:57] Kalen Jordan: so.

[00:30:58] David: they run into issues with those APIs. 'cause like they're, it feels like they're less tested overall than some of the other ones. And

[00:31:06] Kalen Jordan: Hmm.

[00:31:06] David: like for my fulfillment constraints, sometimes there's things where it's like, this didn't do what I expected it to do.

[00:31:11] So I, I wonder if they

[00:31:13] Kalen Jordan: Oh, that's brutal.

[00:31:14] David: somehow or have like found those edge cases and worked around them.

[00:31:17] Kalen Jordan: I doubt it. If there's something function side, I doubt it. I mean, you're kind of just stuck at that point. I mean,

[00:31:24] David: Yeah,

[00:31:24] Kalen Jordan: I mean, there's certain things you could maybe like bandaid on the back end, but you know, I don't know.

[00:31:34] David: could be that they just try and avoid those edges for now.

[00:31:38] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can kind of work your way around them. Speaking of edges, dude. Holy shit. Meta field translations. Oh my god, dude. Somewhere I.

[00:31:48] David: Yeah, what are you doing with those?

[00:31:50] Kalen Jordan: I've been working on this app to sync, data from Shopify to a search vendor. It's like a search, it's like an algo. It's like a search vendor that doesn't have a Shopify app type of a thing.

[00:32:00] So we're making it and, , so anyway, and it needs to support like markets and internationalization and stuff like that. And, even Algolia doesn't support meta field translations. I went and looked, they have a markets feature that's in beta. , and they don't support meta field translations. But the brutal thing is with like product translations, you can fetch them under the product node in GraphQL.

[00:32:23] Uh, but

[00:32:24] David: understand the structure of what's there already? Like if, I want to get product data in a different language, do I prompt, do I get the product and then specify for which locale?

[00:32:35] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah, you have to specify each of the locales in your query.

[00:32:39] David: Gotcha. And so you just have to have already like populated those locales with the translations.

[00:32:44] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. With, yeah.

[00:32:45] David: Gotcha. And that works for meta fields too? Like each meta

[00:32:49] Kalen Jordan: nope.

[00:32:50] David: Ah, okay.

[00:32:51] Kalen Jordan: so, well, the meta field translation ultimately has a locale, but you cannot fetch them under a meta field. Ga say, gimme the translations for this meta field like you can for products. , product options, collections, everything else for meta fields, you have to hit the translatable resources endpoint, which you can't filter on every, anything.

[00:33:13] You can't filter by product ID or anything like that. You have to fetch 'em all. And all they give you is a meta field id. So then I. They don't even tell you if it's a product meta field, if namespace key. So you have to have your own table to store those lookups , and like we have a store with like, , well they have like 80,000 products, but active products, they have like 12,000.

[00:33:34] And they have 5 million records in the, translatable resources that just filtering on meta field translatable resources.

[00:33:42] David: Oh, what is the limit on those? I

[00:33:43] Kalen Jordan: That's,

[00:33:44] David: that.

[00:33:46] Kalen Jordan: it's gotta be huge. It's gotta be massive because that table just, it blow because it's one per meta field, you know? So if you have a hundred meta fields, you know what I mean?

[00:33:56] A lot of people have a hundred, 150 meta fields. And even if they're blank, even if the translations are blank, it still shows up, in there. Yeah.

[00:34:05] David: Dang.

[00:34:06] Kalen Jordan: So it's been gnarly, dude, trying to

[00:34:08] David: Gotta

[00:34:09] Kalen Jordan: that stuff.

[00:34:10] David: figure out who the PM is on that one.

[00:34:12] Kalen Jordan: Oh yeah. No, I've been, been on it, man. Been

[00:34:17] David: luck getting like, communication with Shopify about the, about the gaps there?

[00:34:22] Kalen Jordan: no, I did mention them to this one guy, , that I talked to in additions. I, he was like the engineering manager for like five teams, like B2B and like, I think he wrote the initial version of markets. Like, I'm talking to this guy and I'm like, dude, this guy is like smart.

[00:34:40] And he was cool too. , and I asked him about it and he was like, I'm not sure, you know. Um, so he might, you know, who knows? He probably completely ignored it afterwards, but,

[00:34:50] David: I bet blank love knows a lot about

[00:34:54] Kalen Jordan: oh yeah. Yeah. . But yeah, so that was brutal. So what was the thing you said that you were, , the bots. What was that thing you said?

[00:35:01] David: Oh, I got the, I thought I was done with bots when I came to Shopify, but

[00:35:05] Kalen Jordan: Right? Uh,

[00:35:07] David: I've been, getting deeper and deeper into, I. conversion rate analysis by channel

[00:35:13] Kalen Jordan: mm-hmm.

[00:35:13] David: Google Analytics and just like trying to be on top of it and understand what's going on.

[00:35:18] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:35:18] David: so like when looking at some of the direct traffic that we had over the last month, like you can, there was like some spikiness where sessions would double for one day and I was like, what is going on here?

[00:35:30] 'cause that's like totally wrecking my conversion rate.

[00:35:33] Kalen Jordan: Damn.

[00:35:34] David: it turns out that most of those sessions were Windows machines. And then. I was working with, with Claude, like here's all my stuff. Can you help me understand what trends are happening here?

[00:35:46] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:35:46] David: it turns out that like there wasn't a link that got out that someone like sent out somewhere and people ended up going to it. 'cause there were no specific pages that were really high on number of visitors.

[00:35:58] Kalen Jordan: right,

[00:35:58] David: And so then what it turns out was it was like. One or two page accesses for every page on the site. I'm like, okay, well that sounds like a bot.

[00:36:09] Kalen Jordan: right. Damn.

[00:36:11] David: the site and like, so then I'm going to Google Analytics and I'm like MGA four.

[00:36:17] Is there a setting to help filter out these bots? And it turns out in GA four, they just do it behind the scenes. There's like nothing that you can do to impact this. Um,

[00:36:25] Kalen Jordan: GA four. The gift that keeps on giving,

[00:36:29] David: that's right. Thanks bro.

[00:36:30] Kalen Jordan: dude.

[00:36:30] David: Then today, again, like there's a bunch of sessions coming from, Boardman, Oregon, which is like a, that's a Google data center I think.

[00:36:39] Kalen Jordan: Hmm.

[00:36:40] David: in GCP is doing some crawling,

[00:36:43] Kalen Jordan: Hmm.

[00:36:43] David: or something changed where these like default bot filters aren't filtering these out.

[00:36:48] Kalen Jordan: Dude, you went deep on this research.

[00:36:50] David: I know

[00:36:53] Kalen Jordan: You like looked up individual personnel. You like sent a private detective to their houses.

[00:37:01] David: I am Batman.

[00:37:03] Kalen Jordan: You're like, there's a guy named Bob who's been, uh, on his computer from five to 7:00 PM every night. He has three kids.

[00:37:12] David: Dude, when I first joined this company, like we were on Magento and we actually had issues where bots were like taking us down and I,

[00:37:19] Kalen Jordan: Right?

[00:37:20] David: I have some, some baggage I'm dealing

[00:37:23] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:37:23] David: with bots over my career and I was like, oh, I'm finally done. We're on Shopify and now they're wrecking my conversion rate analysis.

[00:37:32] Kalen Jordan: Catch your spidey sense going.

[00:37:34] David: So it

[00:37:34] Kalen Jordan: so funny.

[00:37:35] David: guess what I have to do is like add some engagement filter to the, segments in GA four,

[00:37:41] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:41] David: like if the engagement is below like second or something, filter them out. So I, I guess that's what I'm gonna have to do.

[00:37:48] Kalen Jordan: Right, right.

[00:37:49] David: Shopify support was like, yep, bots, bots happen.

[00:37:53] Kalen Jordan: Brutal.

[00:37:54] David: any issues with orders? Like, no. Like conveniently, thank you. The bots aren't destroying my business, but they're making it hard for me to understand what's going on.

[00:38:02] Kalen Jordan: Right, right

[00:38:03] it's funny, they must go through like

[00:38:05] David: Maybe this is because there's more people who are training models or something, and so there's just more bots in general. Like

[00:38:12] Kalen Jordan: Right,

[00:38:12] David: I bet the number of crawlers that are out there now is higher than.

[00:38:16] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:38:17] David: Like last year we didn't see similar about traffic, so.

[00:38:19] Kalen Jordan: Right. It's weird. Like I keep thinking about like, what are the invisible effects of all the AI stuff. Like, like I know that I'm getting more done, so I'm like, well, the bad guys are probably getting more done and like, like, you know,

[00:38:33] David: Yeah.

[00:38:33] Kalen Jordan: like everyone's getting more done. You know, like the people that corrupt the financial system through the stock market, like they're getting more done too.

[00:38:42] They're like highly productive. They're probably, probably stole like half of my wealth somehow through inflation. Yeah,

[00:38:50] David: are both increasing

[00:38:52] Kalen Jordan: yeah,

[00:38:53] David: rates.

[00:38:54] Kalen Jordan: yeah. So I'm like, what are the unseen effects of that?

[00:38:56] David: Definitely we'll be seeing

[00:38:58] Kalen Jordan: like a,

[00:38:58] David: out

[00:38:59] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:39:00] David: years, and this might be one, there's

[00:39:02] Kalen Jordan: So. Sounds like a 99% invisible episode. , have you ever heard of that podcast?

[00:39:08] David: I think so. I probably heard it before on like NPR or something. Is

[00:39:12] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because somebody at auditions mentioned it to me and I was like, dude, I haven't listened to that because I used to listen to that podcast probably like. I dunno, like 10 years ago maybe, or something like a long ass time ago. And I hadn't listened to it since then. They mentioned it.

[00:39:26] I was like, oh yeah, I remembered it was a cool podcast. And I was like, wait, what was it about? I couldn't remember like the premise of it.

[00:39:33] David: Hidden things.

[00:39:34] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. . Yeah, man. , okay, here's another one. Okay, so this is so funny because every time I offer to do something for free, I get like zero likes and I'm like, no, it's not a, it's not a fake like thing, like, you know, like they wanted to pay me 50 grand to like cover like an ERP migration.

[00:39:53] I was like, and lower their monthly costs. I was like, I'll do this for free. No likes, like, I think it seems fake. So I was like, I'll, if anybody needs a pim, , flow to be built, like let me know. Like gimme access, I'll, I'll build it for you. And like, 'cause literally like for my gig with Shopify, I need to build that template.

[00:40:12] Like I'm already being paid by someone to build the template. But I was like.

[00:40:17] David: what your needs are.

[00:40:18] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, I was like, well, I was like, well, I could do like a keno and I'd have to figure out how to create an account, probably talk to some random person, the use case would probably be a little bit more boring than if it was like a real world, like going back to that same thing we're talking about.

[00:40:32] Then it was like a real world use case. So I posted that and like no bites whatsoever. I'm like, dude, let me freaking build a sweet template for free.

[00:40:43] David: That's your quote, tweet quote. Tweet that one and be like, dude, let me just build it.

[00:40:47] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, let me do it.

[00:40:49] David: Let me cook. So , this would be, uh, an integration that exists like solely in flow.

[00:40:58] So it'd be like a suite of flows.

[00:41:00] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It could be one flow, it could be as simple as one flow. Like, hey, you know, send this information somewhere else.

[00:41:08] David: Hmm.

[00:41:09] Kalen Jordan: You know, pull this into Shopify, whatever. Or it , again, if somebody had three good ones, like, I have budget to work on these, and so if somebody had three that they thought, and by the way, by the time this episode comes out, I'm sure it probably will already have.

[00:41:23] You know, figured something else out. But, if they had three that sounded cool, I'd probably just build them out.

[00:41:28] David: Yeah. And there was something that we worked on together that was a little bit like this, and it wasn't a pim, it was like just a Google sheet that we were pulling

[00:41:36] Kalen Jordan: that,

[00:41:36] David: from

[00:41:37] Kalen Jordan: right?

[00:41:38] David: to Shopify.

[00:41:39] Kalen Jordan: That's,

[00:41:40] David: like there's

[00:41:41] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:41:41] David: first of all, I bet I thought Akino had like a community edition where you could just in and figure out

[00:41:48] Kalen Jordan: Okay.

[00:41:48] David: is the structure maybe there's a way to just like simply be all products that. , active or something, and then that'll show you like, okay, what is the way that we tie products in Shopify to products in Akino? Like, do they have custom fields that we write in the Shopify ID or something like that?

[00:42:10] Kalen Jordan: Right, right, right. Yeah. It's just like the last time I used a keno, it was super clunky. It felt like super clunky to me. So it'd be cool if somebody had like a cool pim, like, I don't know that much about pim. If there was a cooler PIM and a cooler use case, like, that'd be cool.

[00:42:28] But uh, if not, I'll just come up with something like sort of straightforward.

[00:42:32] David: Yeah, pick the one that seems like it's got the most users and do that,

[00:42:36] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah,

[00:42:37] David: it's a keno. I don't know. I haven't heard of a lot of other like big pims

[00:42:41] Kalen Jordan: It's crazy how Keno originated outta the Magento community. Remember that? I,

[00:42:45] David: I remember seeing them there. Yeah.

[00:42:47] Kalen Jordan: yeah. I mean, that was always my understanding. Maybe it didn't, but that was always my understanding was that it originated outta the Magento community. It's like pretty huge now.

[00:42:56] David: Yeah, that's where I first saw it too.

[00:42:58] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:42:59] Oh dude. Oh my God. Do you use GBT Voice mode Chat? GBT VO Voice Mode.

[00:43:06] David: only when my kids want like a custom bedtime story. I.

[00:43:10] Kalen Jordan: Oh, right. Okay. How often do you do that?

[00:43:13] David: We haven't done it lately, but it's always fun when we do it.

[00:43:16] Kalen Jordan: Oh, okay. Like a few weeks ago, a few months ago, like a month or so ago or something.

[00:43:19] David: yeah. A month or so ago.

[00:43:21] Kalen Jordan: Dude, so like I'll use the GBT voice from time to time and it's weird 'cause it's like it's giving you really smart answers, but the voice it doesn't sound smart somehow like.

[00:43:31] David: too casual.

[00:43:32] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I hear this new model and it just sounded smarter in like an uncanny way. Like I couldn't like the, because I would've said the last model was super realistic. Like I thought it was perfectly realistic pretty much. But then this one, it, there's all these like little subtle things about like how it pauses and how it.

[00:43:56] Pronounces a word a little bit longer, , like I just did like longer, like little things like that and I was like, holy shit, this sounds scary. Like it sounds so much more realistic.

[00:44:07] David: Yeah, they're getting weird. And you can do thi like, so in my experience making bedtime stories,

[00:44:13] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:44:14] David: you can prompt for them to be like, act like a snake when you're a snake character and

[00:44:18] Kalen Jordan: Oh, right,

[00:44:20] David: character.

[00:44:21] Kalen Jordan: dude, that's so cool.

[00:44:23] David: Yeah. To just like sound smart when you answer this question.

[00:44:28] Kalen Jordan: That's so crazy. I wonder if it was tailored to the types of questions I ask, because I don't know. I'll have to check it out.

[00:44:36] David: Maybe

[00:44:37] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:44:38] David: haven't done a lot of voice. I've heard that it's fun, like vibe coding with your voice and just like talk to the computer. I haven't tried it yet, but I

[00:44:46] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, I keep hearing people say that I even installed the app whisper sink or something like that.

[00:44:51] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:52] Kalen Jordan: Dude, the problem is my headphones, I have this issue where my computer always steals the headphones and it's a gigantic issue. And it stole the, so I gave up on it because of that.

[00:45:03] I don't know why.

[00:45:05] David: issue yesterday too, my like, okay, so you know, I have. Millions of tabs.

[00:45:10] Kalen Jordan: Yeah,

[00:45:11] David: in, in order to live that

[00:45:13] Kalen Jordan: you have a country mile worth of tabs and.

[00:45:15] David: I do. In order to survive in that environment of my own creation, need to have a mouse that has buttons on the side that lets me switch between tabs. Okay? if I cannot switch between tabs with my mouse, it severely interrupts my flow.

[00:45:33] Kalen Jordan: You are so weird, dude. Just close the tabs. Dude.

[00:45:38] David: you don't have the tabs changer on your mouse. This is

[00:45:42] Kalen Jordan: No brother.

[00:45:42] David: now.

[00:45:43] Kalen Jordan: No. No. Why? How would you use that? That's insane.

[00:45:48] David: so like I never know how much I use it until I can't. And like, so it's this like gaming mouse, this Logitech, gub software that, that drives it.

[00:45:59] Kalen Jordan: Brett

[00:45:59] David: I'm so frustrated with it. It's just like it's so clunky to use and it's like way too overweight for what I need it to do. So I'm probably gonna try and find some open source thing,

[00:46:09] Kalen Jordan: Brutal

[00:46:09] David: sometimes it'll reset and the mouse buttons on my side will cha change to forward and backward in the browser history. And it just destroys, destroys everything I'm trying to do for the day.

[00:46:21] Kalen Jordan: ruins your entire week.

[00:46:23] David: It does. So I had to like reinstall this whole software thing and this is like the, I need AI to fix that for me now.

[00:46:31] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:46:32] David: Like, it's

[00:46:32] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:46:33] David: our stupid peripheral issues for a while.

[00:46:36] Kalen Jordan: Right. I have a roll ball mouse. I work on my recliner a lot and I like lean back. And I have the mouse, like on the arm of the recliner. Um. Yeah, so like I used to use a regular mouse forever and it would kinda like fall off or like, it would be like hard. And then one day I was like, I should just use a frigging roll ball mouse.

[00:46:58] So then I had, you know, I had to learn how to use it and at first like it was like super awkward. Um,

[00:47:04] David: weird to use. And do you, do you just have like a, a light, , keyboard in your lap

[00:47:08] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:10] David: an onscreen, like how casual are we getting here? Like an onscreen keyboard with

[00:47:14] Kalen Jordan: I just have an apple. I have an apple keyboard. I'm just like, on my lap.

[00:47:19] David: Nice,

[00:47:20] Kalen Jordan: That's how the magic happens, dude. And then when I was getting new stuff, I was like, oh, I need, I need to get like a new keyboard. So I got like, I tried out the split keyboards. You ever try those? Tried out split keyboard? No, they're like in, they're like split in the middle.

[00:47:33] Um, so that,

[00:47:35] David: like, felt like it would be too weird for me.

[00:47:37] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, it was weird. Yeah. It didn't quite, it, it didn't quite work, but, um.

[00:47:41] David: have this other weird, like it's probably some sort of tick, but like I adjust my keyboard a lot. I.

[00:47:47] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] David: Like have to move it sometimes in order to

[00:47:49] Kalen Jordan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:51] David: I just, I love having this thing here on the

[00:47:54] Kalen Jordan: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you have to, yeah. And it's funny, I start, so I start, so I got like, I, dude, I bought like a $500 like split mechanical keyboard. I bought like five. I was like, you know what, let me just buy a bunch, try 'em out and just return 'em, you know? So I bought like five keyboards, like super expensive ones.

[00:48:13] And then,

[00:48:14] David: want the work louder. \ what is it called? Like it's got a knob on it. It's got a little

[00:48:18] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:48:19] David: on the side.

[00:48:20] Kalen Jordan: Oh damn. It's like I didn't even realize it was a whole subculture of like keyboards and stuff like that. And then I started like, I like posted about it and then like harsh, deep. And this other guy were like, that's cute that you think $500 is a lot for a keyboard. And he's like, he calls him Kes.

[00:48:37] He's like, I have, I think he has 50 k, I think he has 50 keys or something like that.

[00:48:43] David: they're in the culture. You

[00:48:44] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. Literally when they started using words, like, I was like, oh my God, there's like a whole subculture here I, I was not even aware of.

[00:48:54] David: Yeah. I, I've been lusting over this nomad e keyboard from work louder. I

[00:48:59] Kalen Jordan: Oh, really?

[00:49:00] David: want to get that thing. It looks so cool.

[00:49:02] Kalen Jordan: Yeah. What does it have

[00:49:05] David: It is got the, like the Chiclet style keys, so just like what you're used to with the Apple keyboard.

[00:49:10] Kalen Jordan: right?

[00:49:10] David: like those too, 'cause like low profile keys are nice for me.

[00:49:14] Kalen Jordan: Right.

[00:49:14] David: I like to slide between keys sometimes and I can't do that with like the big

[00:49:19] Kalen Jordan: Right, right, right.

[00:49:21] David: And this one's got like some knobs and stuff.

[00:49:24] I don't even know what the knobs are for, but it just looks super

[00:49:27] Kalen Jordan: Nice. Yeah, like I, I thought that I was gonna like the mechanical keyboard with the bigger keys 'cause you could fucking pound them. But then, I need to, like the apple keyboard. I'm too used to it. Like I need to be able to slide my fingers around.

[00:49:42] David: Right.

[00:49:42] Kalen Jordan: a key. Yeah,

[00:49:44] David: was so used to being able to do that on the Chiclets.

[00:49:47] Kalen Jordan: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:48] David: a Chiclet mechanical keyboard.

[00:49:50] Kalen Jordan: Need a hot chick and a chit keyboard,

[00:49:53] David: There you go. All set.

[00:49:55] Kalen Jordan: then you'll be good to go, dude. Um.

[00:49:59] David: times have you watched the Minecraft movie so far?

[00:50:03] Kalen Jordan: I still haven't watched it yet. I gotta take my, I gotta take my son there 'cause he loves Minecraft. I, I, dude, I haven't gone to the movie theater in literally as long as I can remember. Like, I thought the movie theaters were not a thing anymore. I, I literally thought they all closed and then I drove by one day.

[00:50:21] I saw people there. I was like, oh, I, I thought this was done. Like, I thought this wasn't. Didn't exist anymore.

[00:50:27] David: moved past this. Yeah. I was missing like the theater experience, like people being excited about a movie

[00:50:35] Kalen Jordan: right.

[00:50:35] David: that's when we went and saw the Minecraft movie and it was perfect. Like everyone was just going crazy with all

[00:50:40] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:50:41] David: Minecraft references and stuff, and now we have it at home. So we've watched it many times.

[00:50:47] Kalen Jordan: Oh, it you can watch it at home now.

[00:50:49] David: Yeah.

[00:50:50] Kalen Jordan: Oh, sweet. Okay. Maybe I'll just do that with him then. But the theater would be cool.

[00:50:57] David: Yeah. Theater is nice. Go to the theater. It's like, makes it into a little like date,

[00:51:02] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:51:03] David: thing.

[00:51:04] Kalen Jordan: See, that's the type of thing I'd be down with is like a, like one of the fancy restaurants that has like, you know, food and stuff or fast, uh, fancy movie theaters that has like food and stuff. You go with your wife, you know, that's, that'd be kind of, I'd like, that'd be fun.

[00:51:16] David: are fun. I like those a lot.

[00:51:18] Kalen Jordan: , last thing, CloudFlare worker logs.

[00:51:21] Uh, so remember all that stuff I said about CloudFlare workers are great. You get logs outta the box. It's amazing.

[00:51:29] David: yep.

[00:51:30] Kalen Jordan: You remember that? Vaguely. Not really.

[00:51:33] David: I remember. And then I remember you complaining about it for some reason.

[00:51:38] Kalen Jordan: so you only get seven days retention, , which like out of the, like out of the box and then there, like, it's not possible to just extend that. You have to, push the log somewhere else. So then I'm like, 'cause like for this one client, like I needed like, at least, like at least 14, but I thought I was gonna have 30 days.

[00:51:57] For some reason I thought I was gonna have 30 days like. Piece of cake, which is like Shopify flow logs are, yeah, like Shopify flow logs are two weeks, mechanics, two weeks. Like a lot of people are in the two week range, but sometimes, you want 30 days or 60 days, something like that.

[00:52:11] So like, oh, you know, there has to be an easy button to push. 'cause like, cloudflare's all about like easy buttons, there's just like a right. Way to do everything. But it's like now it's like I can push to some external service. Now I'm thinking, which is the best external service? Or I can put them in the database in CloudFlare, which like a couple people recommended that to me that even that, no CloudFlare workers really well, but it just feels weird to put logs in your relational database.

[00:52:39] So I'm like on the fence about.

[00:52:41] David: on how many you have, but.

[00:52:43] Kalen Jordan: Well, and the thing is, is that price tier wise work, you, your bases are covered with R one, you could put a shit load of records in there for free. , so from that perspective, it, it might be fine. It just feels strange to do. But, um.

[00:52:59] David: Does their SDK that exists for workers have some like log functions and like, is there documentation that shows kind of what they do or what you're supposed to do?

[00:53:09] Kalen Jordan: Uh, I don't know if they have log functions. They just, they just log like, um,

[00:53:16] David: or

[00:53:17] Kalen Jordan: yeah, they intercept, like if you do a console log. ,

[00:53:20] David: Gotcha.

[00:53:20] Kalen Jordan: and then they like log requests and, . Then it's just a question of like where the longs go, but like there was one service that, I can't remember the name of it, but it looked pretty solid.

[00:53:30] It was like 29 bucks a month. And the thing is, is like, this is for like my side project. I literally have one customer agree to pay like $15 a month for it. So I always like to keep my costs under, like my expenses. I'm always kind of weird like that. So, um.

[00:53:48] David: how business

[00:53:48] Kalen Jordan: You know, like $29, just like I'm getting everything I'm getting on CloudFlare workers for, , five bucks a month.

[00:53:54] It's nuts, you know? And honestly, I could probably be on the free tier too.

[00:53:59] David: Yeah, probably. I mean,

[00:54:00] Kalen Jordan: yeah.

[00:54:01] David: is this like $30 thing? Like do they do some post-processing that makes you like able to write wild card searches or something?

[00:54:09] Kalen Jordan: I think they,

[00:54:09] David: I.

[00:54:10] Kalen Jordan: I think they have some fancy, fancy features and stuff like that. I mean, I'm sure it's worth, like, for any bus actual business of any size, I'm sure it's worth it.

[00:54:19] David: And if there's a ton of volume, otherwise, maybe you could just do like, yeah, like full text searches in a, in a

[00:54:25] Kalen Jordan: I, yeah.

[00:54:26] David: free.

[00:54:27] Kalen Jordan: \ Yeah. I might just go that route. That seems like the more, the most CloudFlare ish. And then there's also like, I don't know that, that feels like the most like CloudFlare native solution.

[00:54:37] David: I bet they, I

[00:54:38] Kalen Jordan: but

[00:54:38] David: one around the corner that'll solve that problem. Anyway, they keep releasing stuff.

[00:54:42] Kalen Jordan: it's great dude. They constantly releasing stuff. It's like out of control.

[00:54:48] David: I don't think I have any, uh, use for cloud containers, but I kind of wish I did.

[00:54:53] Kalen Jordan: Yeah, I thought the same exact thing and then I was like, honestly, I really don't even know what that means. Um, I don't know why I'd want one or need one. I never did any of that container stuff. I think it gets abstracted away in certain things that I use, but I assume, I don't know.

[00:55:11] David: Like you probably don't need that, that level of stuff unless you're doing something a little bit more enterprisey or something like that.

[00:55:18] Kalen Jordan: Yeah.

[00:55:22] Yeah, man. Good times.

[00:55:24] David: Good

[00:55:25] Kalen Jordan: chat as as per use.

[00:55:28]

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